#2
As the title indicates, it is a JDAM (Joint Defense Attack Mechanism) bomb. Basically, they take a standard 1000 or 2000lb bomb and add a tail section. The tail section houses a targeting computer and fins to allow it to hit a target with a high degree of precision.
#17
TGA and others,
Thanks to the magic of the International Zionist Espionage and Assassination Service, I have located a picture of this chetnik deserter, Mr. UFO himself, taken in his restaurant not one hour ago:
#18
Anyone interested in the video 'Zionist War Crimes -- The Case for Prosecution' which presents evidence of Zionist crimes that brought terrorism on US soil, see censored URL below by deleting spaces.
#20
It's incredible that such treason as this board documents is still tolerated, but beware, Americans are beginning to go hungry, and when they start looking for those who sucked their blood by giving billions of dollars a year to Israel and spent billions of dollars by fighting Israel's wars, web sites that are censored on this board will point to all of you.
#22
An entire thread taken up with a troll and people eagerly feeding him with responses. It's this kind of thing that makes trolls stick around!
You see a troll, don't reply. Nothing better than seeing a nice thread, an outrageous comment, and the thread simply continues in the same vein without a hiccup.
#23
Pacifism is not a moral position, it is depraved totalitarian propaganda masquerading as morality.
one can only claim to be a pacifist if one is willing to admit that they would allow the rape and/or murder of their loved ones and do nothing to prevent it.
#24
B - I'd add "Even if the perp was a one-legged 70-year old asthmatic dwarf, and all you had to do was tip him over." Pacifism's a philosophy for the terminally stupid.
#31
Anyone interested in the video 'Zionist War Crimes -- The Case for Prosecution' which presents evidence of Zionist crimes that brought terrorism on US soil, click here.
#32
Anyone interested in the video 'Zionist War Crimes -- The Case for Prosecution' which presents evidence of Zionist crimes that brought terrorism on US soil, click here.
#33
Anyone interested in the video 'Zionist War Crimes -- The Case for Prosecution' which presents evidence of Zionist crimes that brought terrorism on US soil, see censored URL below by deleting spaces.
#34
Anyone interested in the video 'Zionist War Crimes -- The Case for Prosecution' which presents evidence of Zionist crimes that brought terrorism on US soil, see censored URL below by deleting spaces.
A Saudi militant involved in an al Qaeda-linked attack in the kingdom which killed 22 people has surrendered, the Saudi Interior Ministry said on Thursday. The militant, Abdullah bin Abdulaziz bin Ahmed al-Muqrin, was wanted for setting up the cell that planned May's attack in the oil city of Khobar, according to a ministry statement read out on state television. It said three members of his group were arrested earlier this year. Muqrin is not on a list of 26 most wanted militants, but is a relative of the slain leader of the Saudi wing of al Qaeda, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin.
Of course he is.
The Saudi wing of al Qaeda, in a purported statement, claimed responsibility for the shooting and hostage-taking spree in Khobar which was the second major attack on the Saudi oil industry in a month. Twenty-two people were killed in the attack, 19 of them Westerners and other foreigners.
He'll promise to be a good boy, they'll pat him on the head, give him a stipend, and tell him to never do it again (on Saudi soil).
Posted by: Steve ||
09/02/2004 9:03:54 AM ||
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#1
Missed the western comforts, did ya?
Posted by: ed ||
09/02/2004 16:45 Comments ||
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Convicted terrorist Jack Roche, whose offer to provide information about Osama bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders was ignored by authorities four years ago, wants to volunteer his help again.
From Hakea prison in suburban Perth, where he is serving nine years for plotting to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Canberra, Roche has offered to testify in the trials of top suspected terrorists in Europe and Asia, including Indonesian cleric Abu Bakar Bashir.
In exchange, he's angling for an early release from prison and placement in a witness-protection program. Instead, the Australian government has gone to court to try to add a decade to his sentence.
Mullah Krekar submitted his suit against the Norwegian government in order to get the decision to deport him declared invalid. Mullah Krekar's lawyer Brynjar Meling said to the Norwegian paper VG, that Norwegian authorities have used false information from Mullah Krekar's enemies in Iraq without questioning the content to justify the deportation. "Two years of international investigation has proved that my client is not connected to any terror networks," Meling said. "We document in the notice of proceedings that PST (Norwegian Police Security Service) does not guarantee the information UDI (Norwegian Directorate of Immigration) has used, and then politics and prestige are the only things that remain." Mullah Krekar has listed a number of Norwegian politicians, diplomats and top bureaucrats as witnesses. Meling stated that it may be relevant to demand a witness statement from US Secretary of State Colin Powell. Mullah Krekar is the former leader of the guerrilla group Andar al-Islam. The decision to deport him was made on orders from the Minister of Local Government Erna Solberg, February 13 of last year. The deportation is based on the suspicion that Mullah Krekar may be a threat against national security. The terror charge from the Norwegian National Authority for Investigation and Prosecution of Economic and Environmental Crimes (Ãkokrim) was withdrawn in July of last year, and in June of this year, the charge for accessory to attempted murder and suicide bombing was dismissed.
#4
This is a great victory for the political arm of the islamofascists (forgive me, I'm in a dramatical mood :)).
First, you have to understand this law is not an hijab ban per se, but a blanket law on "ostensible religous symbols", covering christians and jews as well (a law targeting the muslims alone was not PC, so the gvt hypocritally choose to broaden its scope, as secularism is at the heart of the french Republic's identity, and inaction was not acceptable by the people).
Then, it will not be strictly enforced; this summer, the administration notified a discrete headgear such as a scarf (bandana) was acceptable, which is the compromise the UOIF (muslim brotherhood offshoot dominating the CFCM org set up to officially represent "french" islam) wanted. And anyway, the minister of education said yesterday that the heads of schools were responsible for enforcing the law (which is basically the pre-ban situation), w/o expelling the girls, and by "explaining" the law at least 1-2 weeks before any action is taken. Negociation must be emphasized, and just before school began, education representatives met with muslim authorities to discuss about muslim mediators between the gvt and the families. So, all this is a scam. But the gvt can be firm when needed: it asked the schoolmasters not to allow journalists to be present...
This whole mess is a shame; France is groveling to free its captives. What a contrast with the italian gvt (which was criticized for its inaction)! The interior minister, well known in RB (De Villepin), has been publically praying along with the mayor of Paris (who spoke in arabic) and the families of the hostages at the grand mosque of Paris; the media are hysterically forcefeeding us the RoP, emphatically saying how much islam and France are friend; the fundies of the UOIF are having a PR fest, showing how nice and indispensable they are, and the CFCM is now at the center of the relationship between France and its muslim community, and between France and the muslim world (the CFCM has sent delegates in Bagdad to secure their release); the foreign minister is touring the ME, meeting with *religious* authorities as well, saying basically "France is on your side"; we're being supported by the hamas, hezbollah, Arafish, muslim brotherhood,... which is in itself a clear indication of how we stand... negociators from the iranian hostages-days are in Iraq, a ransom is quite probable.
Is theses two clowns (who btw are arab apologists and paleostinian tools) are sparred, and I really think they will be, this will clearly indicates France is now officially considered by the islamofascists as a dhimmi country : "you don't kill a good dog, you only kick him from times to times", as I read elsewhere...
#8
Latest report from Al-Beeb says the hostages are "alive and well":
A French Muslim delegation trying to secure the release of the two French journalists held hostage in Iraq says it has had proof the men are alive.
But the kidnappers, the Islamic Army, are said to be waiting for a response from al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden on whether they should kill the two men.
Great theater, huh folks? Lots of winners in this one. Hostage takers get heaps of cash and Arab street cred. Al-Jiz gets a big boost in the ratings. French politicos get to maintain their principled pose (no backpedalling on the scarf ban) despite their trousers being down around their ankles. Freed journalists get to do lucrative interviews and write books describing their kind treatment and solidarity with the cause. We even get this deus ex machina appearance by Osama Bin Laden. Of course the French taxpayer has to fund this performance. Though knowing the French, I'm sure they've got some kind of scheme to raid EU funds to cover it. (That's your money TGA!)
Now I've got different ideas on a great outcome. A 2000lb bomb on the safe house would bring this circus to a crashing halt.
#9
Sounds like the French found a way to openly provide cash for the terrorists in Iraq.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/02/2004 15:57 Comments ||
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#10
The Aussie news has an article: Superspy takes Iraq mission Evidently, Chiraq has sent Major-General Philippe Rondot, 68, a veteran of clandestine hostage diplomacy, to negotiate. I am not familiar with him. Maybe he has a breifcase simular to Jame Baker's.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
09/02/2004 23:36 Comments ||
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#11
That's France for you. The only brave men left among them were eight years old on D-Day.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/02/2004 23:38 Comments ||
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BANGKOK, Sept 2 (Reuters) - Thailand is working on a formal request to extradite a Singaporean charged with membership of the Jemaah Islamiah militant network so he can join four Thais on trial for plotting attacks, a prosecutor said on Thursday. The prosecutor, who declined to be identified, told Reuters the extradition request would be finished in the "next few months".
Special Branch Police Colonel Pirapong Duangamporn told reporters last year Thailand had asked for the extradition of Arifin bin Ali, arrested in Thailand and sent to Singapore where he is being held under tough security laws. But the prosecutor said police had only now made a formal request that the Thai government seek Arafin's extradition. "We are working on this request, but we have other priorities," he said.
"He ain't going no where."
Arifin, 43 and also known as John Wong Ah Hung, is charged with conspiring with the four Thai Muslims to bomb Asian and Western embassies in Bangkok and the beach resorts of Phuket and Pattaya. The court trying the four was told by a prosecution witness on Tuesday that Arifin, charged in absentia, had intended to die in a suicide attack on one of his planned targets. Last month, another prosecution witness quoted Arifin as saying he had wanted to attack a major regional summit in Bangkok attended by U.S. President George W. Bush last year. The Singapore government says he was a senior member of the Singapore unit of the al Qaeda-linked Jemaah Islamiah, which has been accused of several bomb attacks in Southeast Asia, including the 2002 Bali nightclub blasts which killed 202 people.
Senior members keep saying how they are willing to die, but never seem to fit it into their schedule.
Posted by: Steve ||
09/02/2004 9:27:36 AM ||
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A Malaysian court has rejected a plea by five alleged members of an Islamic militant group to secure their freedom.
The five, who include the son of the opposition party's spiritual leader, have been detained without trial or charge for three years. They were among a group of prisoners who held a hunger strike earlier this year to protest at their treatment. The five men were arrested in mid-2001 under Malaysia's controversial internal security laws.
All the men are alleged to belong to an organisation the police dub the Malaysian Militant Group, or KMM, which is believed to be linked to Jemaah Islamiah, the group behind the Bali bombings.
Under Malaysian law, courts are allowed to detain suspects without charge or trial for periods of two years. The men's lawyers have sought to challenge a decision by the internal security minister to extend their detention for a further two years. On Wednesday, the High Court ruled that the minister had acted within a law that effectively allows the government to detain suspects indefinitely.
The accused men are said to have plotted to overthrow the government, but no evidence has ever been made public. Their alleged leader is Nik Adli Nik Aziz, a former fighter with the Afghan mujahadeen. His arrest is widely seen as political - his father is both the chief minister of the state of Kelantan and spiritual leader of the conservative Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, or Pas.
Shortly before the country's general election in March, the group staged a 19-day hunger strike, demanding that the government either charge or release them. Their call was backed by the Malaysian government's own human rights commission as well as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Malaysia is currently holding around 80 alleged Islamic militants under the Internal Security Act.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 1:32:23 AM ||
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Religious extremists under the banner of Aamra Dhakabashi yesterday announced renewed plans to capture three Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat complexes, two in Dhaka and one in Narayanganj. At a press conference held at city's Nayapaltan, Aamra Dhakabashi, an organisation spearheading the anti-Ahmadiyya campaign, said they will take control of Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat complexes at Chashara in Narayanganj on October 8, at city's Nakhalpara on December 10 and Bakshibazar on March 4 next year. After invading those religious establishments, they will also say juma prayers there.
Once that's done, they'll be graded by Learned Elders of Islam and assigned positions in the pantheon of Muslim Holy Places™. They're expected to be numbers 25,831 and 25,832...
Besides, they will hold processions and rallies to drum up support for the capture programme, speakers said at the press conference. "We're ready even to sacrifice our lives to make our plans succeed and no resistance can make us backtrack, " Shamsul Haq, president of Aamra Dhakabashi, said. "We won't object to Ahmadiyyas performing their religious practices once they are declared non-Muslims," he added.
"We won't object, but we'll kill them..."
Jamal Naser Chowdhury, general secretary of Aamra Dhakabashi, said a real Muslim can never accept the way Ahmadiyyas distort the holy Quran. "Ahmadiyyas will have to convert to Islam, if they are to live in this country," he added.
"It don't matter if they were born here! It don't matter if their folk've lived her since they had tails! They can't be here now, 'cuz we say so!"
He said Ahmadiyyas mislead the uneducated section of the population and convert them to their (Ahmadiyya) religion. Leaders of the religious extremist outfit also demanded punishment to Professor Kabir Chowdhury and his followers for backing the Ahmadiyyas. They asked the government to withdraw all cases against their leaders and issue gazette notification of banning the Ahmadiyya publications. Earlier on August 27 a plan of Aamra Dhakabashi to capture Ahmadiyya headquarters in Bakshibazar was foiled in the face of resistance by police and civil society.
The editor of the French newspaper Le Figaro said Thursday that Islamic militants had handed over two French journalists to an Iraqi group that has said it was in favor of releasing them. Jean de Belot said on France Info radio that the news was positive, but that he remained cautious until the men were in safe hands. "The latest information is that Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot have been handed over by the Islamic Army in Iraq to an Iraqi Sunni guerrilla group ... an opposition that we know for a few days now has been in favor of the release of the hostages," de Belot said. Yaaaasss... that worked out well. See? All you have to do is surrender all dignity, grovel, and submit to your new masters. Submit... How do you say "submission" in arabic, I forgot...?
#6
And soon we will have the obligatory interview about how well they were treated by their captors, who fed them snails three times a day etc.
Posted by: Matt ||
09/02/2004 17:07 Comments ||
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#7
And do not think that the Froggies are off the hook. The terrorists are great and fast learners of the principle of inductive reasoning. If it works now, it would work again. The road to hell is paved with appeasers and morons.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/02/2004 17:22 Comments ||
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#8
Money to the insurgents, more dead Americans, Chirac gets to play I told you so.
#9
Chirac while Prime Minister paid about $3M in 1988 to the Lebanese hostage-takers. Much of it was stolen by the arab intermediary. I'm betting he paid more like $10M this time around. That's good for a dozen more 9/11 attacks.
#14
It's time to break trade relations with the French. We can get your wine and cosmetics elsewhere. No more tourists to Paris. No sense in the US funding the French anymore.
Posted by: ed ||
09/02/2004 18:13 Comments ||
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#15
Invade France.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 18:15 Comments ||
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#16
Invade France? Hell no. We did that once before, and look at how they feel about us now.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
09/02/2004 18:35 Comments ||
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#17
Invade France? lol For what? To prop up their sorry welfare state? lol
#19
"Invade France? Hell no. We did that once before, and look at how they feel about us now."
Robert, do you mean the more fierce resistance they put up against McDonalds, than they did against the German Army?
A cleric was questioned for a few hours on Tuesday before being freed without bail on charges that he had called for jihad, against US forces in Iraq, his lawyer said. Sheikh Hamed Al Ali, former secretary general of the hardline Salaf Movement, was interrogated after a few radical suspects, detained on charges of recruiting fighters for Iraq, claimed he had encouraged them. "We told the prosecutors that confessions of the suspects were taken under duress by state security agents. We demanded an investigation into the issue," lawyer Abdulrahman Al Rasheedi said in a statement. In June, the criminal court handed Sheikh Hamed a two-year suspended sentence and a $3,400 fine for publicly opposing the country's support for the US-led war on Iraq last year. Kuwaiti security forces arrested some 16 suspects in a crackdown last month on a group of radicals for allegedly recruiting fighters for Iraq. Five of the suspects have been released on bail. Four more, including the spokesman of the Association of Victims of Torture and Arbitrary Arrest, Khaled Al Dossari, remain at large.
Suspected Islamic fundamentalists killed a young Muslim in Eravur, in the eastern Sri Lankan district of Batticaloa on Tuesday, apparently because he and his cohorts were indulging in "un-Islamic" activities, reports in the local media said. Quoting the police, the media said that a group of Islamic radicals entered a house in the Mich Nagar area of Eravur at about 11.30 pm, threw a hand grenade and shot dead Mohamad Ismail aged 25. Two other inmates, Abdul Hakeem (23) and USA Majid (24), were injured. Prior to this, some Islamic vigilante organisations had issued a warning that they would not tolerate un-Islamic activities like consuming alcohol, gambling, prostitution, and misbehaving with women. The "Tamilnet" website said that a similar attack had taken place earlier in Oddamavadi, another place in Batticaloa district.
A probe into a bomb blast that killed nine children and an adult at an Afghan school has focused on a mullah who taught in the same building, a local official and sources close to the investigation said on Thursday. The Taliban, Afghanistan's ousted hard-line Islamist rulers, are active in the district of Zormat in the southeast province of Paktia, where the school was located, but a Taliban spokesman has denied any involvement in last Saturday's attack. But Paktia Governor Haji Assadullah Wafa said the mullah whom police want to question had links to the Taliban. A source close to the investigation said the mullah, or religious teacher, had not been seen for almost a week. The bombed building was shared by the mullah's madrassah, or religious school, and other teachers who taught a more progressive curriculum. "Mullah Nawab was teaching pupils at his madrassah how to use explosives and mines," Paktia's governor told Reuters.
Maj. Scott Nelson of the U.S. military press center in Kabul, said villagers and Afghan officials had asserted that the motive for the attack was anger that some teachers in the building were giving courses in mathematics, languages and science. An Afghan women's nongovernment organization was also providing primary education for young boys in the same building. But no group operating at the school had received funding from the International Committee of the Red Cross as local government and U.S. military officials initially suggested. A school in neighboring Zabul province was recently forced to close because of threats from Taliban elements angered by its modern curriculum.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 11:36:49 AM ||
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An Egyptian al Qaeda operative arrested this week in southwestern Pakistan is an explosives expert who spent time in Iran after the September 11 attacks, officials said Thursday. Abdul Sattar Sharif ul Misri was arrested Monday with a Saudi suspect, Abdul Hakeem, in Quetta, capital of the southwestern province of Baluchistan, which borders Iran and Afghanistan. "All we know about him is that he was an expert in explosives and he used to train people how to handle these explosives," military spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan said. He did not say whether the suspect was planning any attacks in Pakistan.
An intelligence official, who did not want to be identified, said ul Misri had lived in Afghanistan until the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States in 2001, when he fled to Iran. "He used to visit Pakistan from Iran occasionally. His family still lives in Iran," the official said. Ul Misri and Hakeem were captured in a rented house owned by an Afghan in a poor neighborhood of Quetta, where many Afghan refugees also live. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed has described the pair as "important people" and has said ul Misri had a price on his head. Ul Misri means "the Egyptian" in Arabic. Tuesday, security forces arrested another al Qaeda suspect at a religious school run by a senior Islamist politician. But government officials said Hafiz Abdul Khaliq was released after a brief interrogation.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 11:31:23 AM ||
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A suspected al-Qaida operative who was captured along with another man during raids in this southwestern city is an "explosives expert" who had arrived here from Iran, a security official said Thursday.
The suspects, an Egyptian named Sharif al-Misri and another man of Middle Eastern origin identified as Abdul Hakeem, were caught Sunday when Pakistani intelligence agents acting on a tip raided a home in Quetta, the capital of the province of Baluchistan.
Abdul was identified as a Saudi yesterday.
The arrests were announced Wednesday by Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed. A security official who is familiar with the investigations of the two suspects told The Associated Press on Thursday that al-Misri had arrived in Pakistan from Iran, where his wife and children have been living since the U.S.-led coalition ousted the Taliban government from Afghanistan in late 2001. "He (al-Misri) is an explosives expert. He has told us that his wife and children live in Iran," said the official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity.
That's funny, I could have sworn Iran said they had all the al-Qaida guys locked up.
He said al-Misri admitted training militants in Afghanistan but insists he has done nothing against Pakistan. "So far, it is not clear why he came here," said the official. "We suspect he was on some mission, but we don't have any details."
Could have been R&R...
"We sent out for a new shipment of truncheons, soon as those come in we'll get some answers."
Pakistan, a key ally of the United States in its war on terror, shares a border with Iran. Pakistani and Iranian border guards often arrest people, mostly Pakistanis, who try to illegally cross the border to travel to Europe in an effort to seek better jobs.
If you're heading for a jihadi training camp, you're free to go.
Posted by: Steve ||
09/02/2004 8:50:21 AM ||
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A militant group calling itself Tawhid and Jihad has killed three Turks it was holding hostage in Iraq, Al Jazeera television reported Thursday. The Arabic television channel said it had received a video from the group showing the hostages being killed. But it only aired a brief segment showing the men clutching their passports and sitting on the floor in front of three masked gunmen, one of whom was reading a statement.
The gunmen were standing in front of a black banner which looked similar but not identical to the flag of Jama'at al-Tawhid and Jihad, which is headed by al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Iraqi police earlier said they had found the bodies of two Turkish truck drivers on the side of a road north of Baghdad. The body of an unidentified man, possibly also Turkish, was found next to them.
Posted by: Steve ||
09/02/2004 8:23:49 AM ||
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#3
This is a classic âactive shooterâ scenario, the difference is the Chechen Islamic terrorists are covering all the tactical response options: (1) if you kill one of our people (slime buckets)â¦we will kill a bunch of kids, (2) if you wound one of our peopleâ¦we will kill a smaller bunch of kids, (3) if you attack in forceâ¦we will kill everyone!
The only reason they havenât blown up the school yet is because they are getting the publicity they want and successfully moving public opinion. The terrorists realize the Russian parents are pressing Putin to hold-off, and they may actually release one child or two, read a statement calling for an independent Chechnya and wait.
Putin is now between a rock and a hard place. If he stands by the âno negotiation with terroristsâ plank of the Russian security program itâs obvious more Russians will die. To remain strong, his best bet is to rapidly move forward with a plan to rescue the hostages and let the cards fall where they may, followed by a redoubling of the military effort against the Islamic terrorists in Chechnya. Once again, more Russians will die.
For their part, the Russian people will count the number of deaths in the past week, estimate additional military loss of life not worth it and press Putin to announce a move toward Chechen autonomy. To do so will only encourage Islamic terrorists to continue their ever-expanding drive to conquer by the sword, what they cannot realize by the ballot.
What the Russian people, many EU nations and a slice of the American public refuse to realize is that this is a war. Not a war pitting Christians against Muslims, but rather freedom against totalitarianism. These radical Islamic terrorists are driven by a belief in their religion that is medieval in its underpinnings and barbaric in its repression of basic human rights and freedom. Given the opportunity, all rational peoples would choose freedom of choice over blind obedience to dogma, in whatever shape that may take. There will always be extremists at each end of the pendulum, what we must not fail to recognize is that by retaining a solid middle we can keep the two apart. Itâs time for the âsilent majorityâ among all peoples and religions, to join together, support their duly elected governmental officials and remove this blight from our midst.
Sadly, what we are witnessing in Russia today, Iraq lo these many months and across the planet well before even 9-11, is the most rabid among the believers of Islam taking their twisted view of Godâs wrath and making it their own, to be employed against those they consider non-believers. At some point, the terrorists holding the school will begin killing one or more hostages at a time to force Putinâs hand. Thatâs been their intention all along!
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 06:11 ||
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#1
Bryan Bryan!! Analyse this beauty - the Beeb radio news this morning's opening salvo was something along the lines of women, children, kittens and gerbils killed in a US air strike aimed at militants. The crater looks a whopper, which is perhaps why the doc cannot be sure what sex/age the remains are.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 6:15 Comments ||
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#2
Whoa - ~30 ft deep? That looks like a 2000-pounder crater! Heh. Remains? He means oddly colored rocks.
#3
Nice big hole. I bet it removed some not so nice from this earth to were they will never be a threat to anyone again. The reporters at the BBC are besides themselves in sorrow I am sure.
I love the beeb I leave crap like this on their "have you say." My morning is not complete with out it. I know it has to drive their bleeding liberal socialist hearts freekng batty. I left this today. Not really good grammar or all to literate but none the less it would never get posted.
"... Islam is a backwards and violent out of date religion. The terror in the modern world today is uniformly Islam against the modern and secular. When will people get a clue. You can't negotiate with those whose desire is to either convert or kill you. Religion of peace? Tell that to the reporters under duress, tell that to the mothers and fathers of the school children in Russia. Tell that to the familes of the dead passengers on the downed Russian airliners. Islam is about peace? Islam is about sucide belts packed with nails, nuts and ball bearings to rip and tear human flesh and inflict horrific wounds. The wearers of such vests are proclaimed martyrs by the religous men of Islam when they are just plain murders. The religion of peace? The Tommy turtles who say if we just leave them alone and accept them they will go away are fools. "Iraqi disidents?" is the Beeb on crack? These are murders not dissisents. We will be better as a world when the last vestiges of Islam are stamped out and the last mullah has a stake driven through his black murdering heart. "
#4
To BBC News the Islamic terrorists threatening to murder several hundred Russian schoolchildren are merely a "gang". A gang. Not 'terrorists', not 'Islamic', not even 'kidappers'. Just a gang. Like bank robbers only politically active, presumably.
#5
Bulldog - do the Beeb News possess a general e-mail address (similar to channel 4) for you to voice your concerns over the quality of their editorial? I feel the need to bitch at them mercilessly - I only listen to the radio news cause Charlotte Green sounds dirty and is a real turn-on at 7a.m.
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 6:45 Comments ||
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#6
"I only listen to the radio news cause Charlotte Green sounds dirty and is a real turn-on at 7a.m."
#9
Looks like Iraq could now have a second olympic size swimming pool. Bulldog - I found the feedback form!
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 6:58 Comments ||
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#10
...do the Beeb News possess a general e-mail address (similar to channel 4) for you to voice your concerns over the quality of their editorial?
You can post feedback here. I was dubious, but I fired off a rant to the BBC a year ago, I think, and they actually sent a 'rant noted' snail mail back to me. Probably still on my desk somewhere....
My preferred dirt is the cheeky scrubber who does the Channel 5 weather. Grubby. Mmmmm!
#14
This is the link to the Have Your Say which is different from the What the internal U.K. based folks would see by default. Plenty of LLL and Moonbats post to it.
#15
Thanks one and all - yup Lara's a bit of a sort. I attempt to post on Have your Say all the time but never make it through the censorship, wonder why?
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 7:27 Comments ||
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#16
I attempt to post on Have your Say all the time but never make it through the censorship, wonder why?
I gave it up as a waste of time ages ago. You'll find that if you post a 'liberal' message it's got a good chance of making the cut. It's less honest than DU.
#17
Here is the CENTCOM press release: PRECISION STRIKE OPERATION AGAINST ZARQAWI NETWORK
BAGHDAD, Iraq â At 11:32 p.m. Wednesday evening local Baghdad time, Multi-National Force â Iraq conducted a precision attack on an Abu Musab Zarqawi operating location in Southwest Fallujah. Surrounded by fields, the two targeted buildings served as safe houses and meeting locations for known Zarqawi associates. Earlier in the day these terrorists conducted an execution in the Shuhidah district in Southern Fallujah. The Zarqawi associates were observed removing a man from the trunk of a car, executing him then burying his body. Multiple sources of Iraqi and coalition intelligence provided the basis for this operation. Continued, successful strikes against Zarqawiâs network of terrorists have degraded his capabilities and significantly eroded his base of support. A reward of up to $25 million remains in effect for information leading to the arrest and capture of Abu Musab Zarqawi.
Posted by: Steve ||
09/02/2004 10:33 Comments ||
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#18
I suspect the "observation" was made by a drone in "real time"...followed by the crater..on time!
#20
So you guys are checking out weatherbabes, eh? We don't get this when we call in for a preflight weather briefing with the FAA. Maybe I can make it a suggestion for a kinder, gentler
FAA...heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
09/02/2004 11:47 Comments ||
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#21
My reading of the BBC "Have Your Say" page on this incident (and also on many others) makes one thing very clear: A whole lot of people believe that violence = right. That is to say, if you are willing to do something sickeningly, outrageously violent, it must be because you had no choice. You felt so very very strongly about it, and there were no other avenues left to you because your oppressors had closed them off. Poor thing!
The lesson here is that there is no percentage in lawful protest. Then people would judge the cause on the facts. No, better to just get to slaughtering.
#26
"All the wounded are families. Among the dead, there could be two or three children but the bodies are torn to pieces and it's difficult to tell," he told the AFP news agency.
"Families?" We all know how terrorism is such a 'family' affair. Someone should tell the doctor to examine all remains for facial hair. At least that will weed out any children.
A reporter on the scene of the school siege in southern Russia has told CNN that negotiations broke down hours ago after militants turned off their telephones. The tense standoff began when gunmen seized at least 100 hostages -- possibly as many as 400 -- at the school in southern Russia on Wednesday. Four people were killed in the initial attack and Russian President Vladimir Putin canceled an upcoming trip to Turkey to deal with the standoff, sources in his office told CNN. Time magazine reporter Paul Quinn-Judge reported early Thursday that several hundred relatives of the hostages had gathered at the town's main community hall. "The mood here is very subdued, very quiet. Hardly anybody is speaking, except in a low murmur," he said. "People are stunned and exceedingly distressed, some of them are also very angry and that anger is perhaps one of the most worrisome tendencies that one can pick up here as one wonders through the town."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 4:39:26 AM ||
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#1
I just posted the following at the BBCs "Have your say" Website
Henry in London you sir are a equines behind. There is no excuse what so ever for taking children and teachers hostage.
All I can say in modern history that this is typically an islamic act.
BBC you call these people a "gang" They are terrorists. Why must you mince words. Are you worried about ofending people who threaten to murder infants and children or those who would support such acts?
The situation can be defused by killing every last terrorist where they stand. If you think people wearing sucide belts can be barganed with you are unstable in your thinking.
#3
Something / someone's gone boom - check link at top p.1
Posted by: Howard UK ||
09/02/2004 7:45 Comments ||
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#4
Iyot - not many people would try to argue that the Ruskies are blameless as regards the Caucasus situation, but this situation will be 'defused' / detonated by force. You don't make compromises with, or concessions to, terrorists. You kill them.
#6
An intelligence chief said the siege would be ended by "lengthy negotiations".
And I just saw on the news that ther Russians have "ruled out the use of force". Yeah, sure... Nothing like "lengthy negotiations" to prepare for, and execute, a special forces operation. Taking out 17 terrorists near-simultaneously shouldn't be an impossible task.
#7
bulldog, in that case you can be sure all these little children will die.. In that case, I think it's preferable to give in to their main aim-the release of the perpetrators of the Ingushi attack in june 2004..
#9
expose the prisoners to a fatal communicable virus and release them to the terrorists....let em drive away
Posted by: Frank G ||
09/02/2004 8:40 Comments ||
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#10
Yes, i think it is wiser to give in to the terrorists, if the alternative is the death of over 100 children. Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..
#11
We are going to have to develop tactics against this sort of situation, since it is probably going to become more common. The use of knockout gas was a good idea, but it obviously still needs some work. With kids involved, knockout gas is even more problematic, since they are more susceptible to an overdose.
An alternative approach is combination of video for precisely locating each perp and armor-piercing rounds to penetrate multiple walls. We need the insect-like robots from the movie "Minority Report" to get the covert video.
I reckon they better adopt another strategy. The whole Chechnya problem has been totally mismanaged, to an extent that now the Ingushi are joining the Chechen terrorists. Does someone here ever wonder why this happened ? Since 2002, the FSB / Russian Military has created a Chechnya like atmosphere in Ingushetia ..This is the result.
#13
I also feel for the children. These bastards have to be stopped, and stopped COLD. They need to be killed dead. Giving into them will only encourage more children-hostage taking in the future.
Lyot - if you think that giving in to the terrorists would 'solve' the problem you are very naive. It will only encourage them to do the same again and again and again in Russa, the United States, Britain, and everyplace else there are children. We (or the Philippines) 'rewarded' hostage taking and beheadings in Iraq and now hostage taking is commonplace.
Your 'giving in' to save 100 children would endanger thousands worldwide.
It is a very terrible and horrible choice to have to have to make.
#14
they will be encouraged to do these kind of actions, no matter if you give in or not. They didn't give in Dubrovka theater, yet what happened yesterday ? Giving in to the terrorist wouldn't resolve the Chechnya problem, but it would at least spare these 100 children. And then they could start working on a real solution for Chechnya. On the diplomatic level.. Not with the terrorist, but with the Maschadov government..
#15
For every person in the school that dies a terrorist prisioner dies.For every boom belt that goes off a terrorist and his extended family dies.Show these bastard compatriots of Anti,and Gentle what playing hardball means.
#17
There is a world of difference between the Theater and this school. Also there hasn't been a rash of 'threatre' style acts until now precisely because the russian government did not 'give in' then. If they give in now there will most certainly be a rash of 'school' attacks because then the terrorists will know just how to hit us for the maximum benefit.
What should be done:
1) Russia should stop all work on the Iranian Nuclear plant. And perhaps even bomb the plant site.
2) Kill the prisoners who the terrorist are asking to be set free.
3) Truely Join the US and Britain in the WOT.
#18
Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..
Where did I say it could be done without bloodshed? Of course there would be bloodshed, numpty, and you'd try to make sure most if not all of it was terrorist blood. You may find that you can't take out all of those wearing suicide belts before they have a chance to use them, but if you can take out those with who are equipped with heavier explosives, you'll save most of the innocents' lives. And if you can somehow manage to separate the terrorists from the children before killing them, all the better. That might be do-able if you pretend to accede to their demands - and if so, go ahead! In fact, reneging on promises to terrorists is a superb idea. Makes the practice pointless.
Do you believe in democracy? Do you think it's acceptable for a democratically elected leadership of a country to have its policies dictated by terrorists? Why is that acceptable? Why not just get rid of the democratic process altogether, since you seem to believe that 'might is right'. The crueller the violence, the more right it is, huh? Real jungle-dweller school of thought.
#19
If one were completely and 100% devoid of humanity, as Islamic terrorists seem to be, then this is actually a fairly shrewd move on their part.
Putin can't storm (building wired w/explosives), use sleeping gas (children), seige (deprive children of water? food? heat?) or employ special forces (suicide belts) without being assigned blame in the children's deaths.
They picked a "good" scenario. Putin is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The terrorists don't seem to mind being damned, period.
Expect more nihilistic events like this one. Short of a miracle where the terrorists get a change of heart and let all the children go - this is simply a no-win situation.
The terrorists have achieved their simple goal - terror. Short of a miracle, they won.
Posted by: B ||
09/02/2004 10:54 Comments ||
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#20
employ special forces (suicide belts) without being assigned blame in the children's deaths. They picked a "good" scenario. Putin is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The terrorists don't seem to mind being damned, period. Expect more nihilistic events like this one. Short of a miracle where the terrorists get a change of heart and let all the children go - this is simply a no-win situation. The terrorists have achieved their simple goal - terror. Short of a miracle, they won.
Wrong.
Putin has to go in with special forces. Children will most likely die in the attempt, but he can't sit there and he can't give in.
I am sorry for the potential loss of young life, but blame for those deaths can't be placed in Putin's hands. Blame for those deaths will rest firmly in the hands of every Muslim, worldwide.
#21
Badnov - I agree that Putin must act and on another thread I make the same point that you are making - that we need to keep the blame on the terrorists where it belongs.
But the nature of our world is that Putin will be blamed - even if he does the right thing. In fact, that's why he SHOULD do the right thing - cause he's going to get heat for it no matter what happens.
These terrorists wanted to create terror and they did. Just like the Paleo's do with each bus bomb. One doesn't need to be brilliant to do it, just hateful and heartless.
They wanted to create terror and headlines. They succeeded. Thus, they already won this battle. If Putin is smart, he won't cave and allow them an even greater victory.
Posted by: B ||
09/02/2004 14:29 Comments ||
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#22
These terrorists wanted to create terror and they did. Just like the Paleo's do with each bus bomb. One doesn't need to be brilliant to do it, just hateful and heartless. They wanted to create terror and headlines. They succeeded. Thus, they already won this battle. If Putin is smart, he won't cave and allow them an even greater victory.
Putin and his entourage may not like the term but I am pretty certain he will cowboy up and put these f*ckers down for good.
I am not usually a praying man but I will pray tonight for the survival of as many kids as possible and that Russian rifles find the right targets tonight.
#23
Lyot-You lack moral principles. How about if the terrorists put a knife to the child's throat and demands he tell them where the father is so they can kill them. The father will die (and guess what, the child might, too)-make you feel better? You should take a look at the recent Rantburg posting on plans for terror attacks on the Spanish embassy in Honduras--AFTER Spain agreed to the terrorists demands to leave Iraq.
There is nothing quite like moral bankruptcy that eggs on terrorism.
#24
for every person in the school that dies a terrorist prisioner dies.For every boom belt that goes off a terrorist and his extended family dies.Show these bastard compatriots of Anti,and Gentle what playing hardball means.
The Russians have been playing these kind of 'hardball' games with the Chechens for over 5 years now. And the reason so many Ingush are now joining the terrorist ranks is just because the Russians have used excessive force during the last 15 months. With these 'tradition based people', more violence simply isn't going to work.
#25
mhw, i think the second solution would be a good one, but it would all depend on the muslims themselves.. I reckon this is not going to work.. I doesn't even happen here in the West, as far as I know.. Bombing mosques would only lead to more polarisation, in my opinion
#27
bulldog,
if Russia & Chechnya were a democracy, there wouldn't be a hostage taking right now.. That is the main issue here..Putin & co have created this monster themselves by their policies in the Caucasus..They are the main defenders of the 'might is right' principle.. Now they have it come their way, and I am not suprised.. They have to break the cycle, or it won't stop..
we clearly have a different view on the situation in Chechnya..The Russian army is guilty of massive war crimes. I call that 'violence' and not 'conducting a war'..
#29
So if the Russians asked for it because of the past Russian government's "policies in the Caucasus", did the Ossetian kids ask for it by because they are citizens of Russia? See where this dangerous argument leads you?
By this, I don't assert that there was justification for the past Russian escapades in the Caucasus. It's a bigger question than Russia's past, now.
#30
The Russian army is guilty of massive war crimes. I call that 'violence' and not 'conducting a war'.
Where there have been crimes comitted the Russian Army has court martialed officers involved. Your charge that war crimes have taken place do not wash. You have cited NO instances, NO indication whasoever that war crimes are in fact Russian Army policy, which is an element needed to make a charge of war crimes.
The Chechens are armed illegal combatants and are not subject to international law, but they are subject to Russian Army action to defend Russia's homeland.
I hear you will find a receptive, if stupid, audience amounst those at DU, IndyMedia and the Daily Kos. They WILL buy your lies.
#31
badanov, no need to discuss this further.. You have clearly no clue about what really happens in Chechnya..
jules, it's not a justification for what happens in S.Ossetia..There's no justification for such horrible crimes. But these acts are not coming 'out of the blue', and in order to stop this, I do not believe 'more violence' is a solution
#33
Lyot-Instead of telling us "you clearly have no clue about what really happens in Chechnya", persuade us, with facts, reason, or the history of the area, if you are from there, and tie it into your philosophy of why these criminals are ok but the Russian army criminals aren't.
If you use ANY material from kavkaz, Amnesty International or any 'human rights' organization, governemental or private, I will consider you as a dishonest person and I will then dismiss you as the troll you most likely are.
I'm not from there.. I work with Chechen refugees almost on a daily basis..I do not have the time to go into facts, reason and history of the area today, but will try to do tomorrow.. I never said those criminals are okay. The only thing I know is that Russian policies there are the perfect breeding ground for more terrorists..
#37
#10Yes, i think it is wiser to give in to the terrorists, if the alternative is the death of over 100 children. Or do you really believe these 20 terrorists can be taken out so easily without bloodshed ? I would call that naive..
lyot, please indicate where appeasement has ever worked in the past. If you are unable to do so, please cease with your twaddle. One question; Do the Chechens (or Ingush) even want a democracy? I think theocracy is more what they have in mind. That's "theocracy," as in Iran, Taleban Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and so many of the 22 non-democratic Middle East states that are responsible for the bulk of global terrorism. Should we permit the Ingush and Chechens to establish their own little terrorist havens theocracies?
If the terrorists are ceded even the least of their demands, for every child that dies in that school, another 1,000 will die in copy-cat terrorist attacks subsequent to this one. While the Russians are no angels, taking a school full of children hostage goes beyond the pale.
This attack facilitates retaliation in kind against the families of terrorists. Of course, they do not realize this, but it stands to reason nonetheless. We should refrain from such wanton savagery, but if this sort of schoolhouse terror persists, then it will become necessary to begin killing entire villages of terrorist enclaves.
Do you see where this is leading, lyot? It's called the slippery slope. Not Russia, but the terrorists have clambered out onto it. That they are so cowardly as to drag hundreds of children with them into the crosshairs is sufficient reason alone to kill every one of their murderous kind.
Again, lyot, tell me what use appeasement serves. I'm waiting for your reply.
#39
"If you use ANY material from kavkaz, Amnesty International or any 'human rights' organization, governemental or private, I will consider you as a dishonest person and I will then dismiss you as the troll you most likely are."
If someone uses material from Amnesty International you dismiss them as trolls? Why, because AI tends to dislike torture and that's inconvenient to all supporters of torture?
Tough luck for you, badanov -- you've chosen a fool's game when defending Russian policy in Chechnya, because it's been about the same as Sudanese policy in Darfur, or Saddam's policy against the Kurds. That you have defended makes *me* dismiss *you*.
Here from Human Rights Watch (feel free to consider me a troll for using HRW as evidence)
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech/
Here from Amnesty International (feel free to consider me a troll for using info from more organizations that hate torture)
http://www.amnesty.org/russia/chechnya.html
Let me clear about this, lest people intentionally "misunderstand": NOTHING THAT THE RUSSIANS DID CAN POSSIBLY EXCUSE CHECHEN TERRORISM. But the Russian tactics already displayed do show that mere brutality doesn't help stop it either.
#40
In RB's opinion, How many lives/years must be lost before the civilized world outlaws the teachings and practices of Islam? I mean, we continuely hear from "moderate" clerics that these awful practices are approved against the west. How long before we start fighting a less sensitive war?
#41
zenster,
appeasement will save the couple of hundred civilians that are now threatened by this commando.. So, yes, it would have an immediate positive effect. I do not believe that applying more violence is ever going to solve the Chechen problem. You seem to be advocating total genocice. Then I do prefer I much simpler solution : let the Chechens have their independent republic, and fence them of from the rest of Russia. I do believe this is a far better solution then going down the slippery slope. It will mean Russia lost this war, but in a sense, it already has . By the way, if Chechnya ends up independent, it will not become a fundamentalist Islamic republic.. There's not enough support among Chechen civilians for a fundamentalist regime . Not even after 10 years of horrible war..
#43
jules,
there are not only terrorists involved in this war..Russians need to talk with the former democratically elected government, and pick up the peace proces.. Maschadov needs to distance himself from the likes of Basayev.. I'm convinced this is the only way Chechnya will not longer be a breeding ground for terrorists.
#44
#41I do not believe that applying more violence is ever going to solve the Chechen problem. You seem to be advocating total genocice.
While more violence may not solve the "Chechen problem," it is certainly required to eliminate terrorists who would take hundreds of school children hostage. You continue to ignore how any ceding to these terrorists' demands will spawn a raft of copy-cat schoolhouse hostage takings. What is your solution to preventing any more of these horrors?
As to "advocating total genocide." Please go back and reread my post. I said that the terrorists venturing out onto the slippery slope of using children as political pawns will likely result in their own families being slaughtered along with the terrorists themselves. How is that "advocating total genocide?"
Terrorism is simply unacceptable. It must be countered with lethal force so as to extinguish the poisonous viral meme that it is. This crisis in particular explicitly demonstrates the utter lack of restraint that terrorists routinely exhibit. How do you suggest countering such a virulent capacity for mayhem? You have also yet to show where appeasement has ever served to limit totalitarianism or theocracy.
#46
then it will become necessary to begin killing entire villages of terrorist enclaves.
every Chechen village has terrorists/resistance fighters.. If you are going to start wipe out these villages, there is not much of Chechnya that's going to be left..That's why I thought you were referring to genocide as a solution .
I'm not sure there will be a stream of copy cat actions, if you try to solve the main issue, which is the status of Chechnya. In my opinion, giving Chechnya it's independence can not be equalled with appeasement to the terrorists as there is also something like a Chechen resistance with , in my view, legitimate aims ( taking into account the Khasavyurt accords of 1996 between the Russian state and the Chechen party). Terrorism is unacceptable, but the Chechen resistance is legitimate. From day one, Putin has brushed aside the legitimate Chechen government and labelled them all as terrorists. This was clearly a very faulty strategy, and it should be reversed. I do not know if it is possible, but it's far more preferable over applying more indiscriminate violence. In the Caucusus, violence only breeds more violence. This problem is going on for more then 400 years now.
#47
jules, no of course not, thes kind of people ARE terrorists.. and I do not doubt they will go all the way to terrorize the Russians civilian population, Let it be clear that I do NOT defend their actions in ANY way...I just would like to see a solution for the Chechnya problem, and I fear 'more violence' is not a good option.
#48
Russian troops are notorious for grabbing Chechen civilians, shaking them down for money, and even torturing and killing them. Russian military tactics in Chechnya are primitive and stupid. The Chechen bloodbath will continue so long as the Russian military is riddled with incompetence, corruption, demoralization, and complete lack of discipline and accountability.
#49
Lex is backing up Lyot's basic point. The Russian campaign in Chechnya has been crude to put it nicely. There is no effort that I have ever heard about at real nation building or even minimizing collateral damage during campaigns. There is no effective effort to build up the non-Islamist portion of the population and get them on the side of mother Russia. The scum that took the kids need to die, but Putin and Russia need to do a much more effective job than they have done in Chechnya (or as the Beeb reporters say Chech-Nyaaaah).
Posted by: remote man ||
09/02/2004 17:38 Comments ||
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#50
#46I'm not sure there will be a stream of copy cat actions
Then I must refer you to the spate of kidnappings in Iraq. Their continuation is a direct result of acquiescence to the kidnappers' demands. Expect the same should any cooperation be shown to these current thugs. It is all the same sort of mentality.
I will agree that unwarranted violence is not any sort of solution in Chechnya. I have no doubts that the ham-fisted Russian military has perpetrated all sorts of misery in the region.
Again, taking hundreds of children hostage only serves to taint any putative goals the Chechens (or Ingush) have. Doing so opens the door for reprisals in kind and further serves to justify any previous brutality. The terrorists are merely sealing their doom.
#51
This crisis should wake us up to a sobering fact: if Russia blows up, we're screwed. Former SU nukes will be on suitcases faster than you can wire money from Paris to Dubai. "Blowing up" means a collapse of the central Russian state and dissolution of Russia into one island of western prosperity (aka Moscow) surrounded by various mafiya/FSB/governor-bandit fiefdoms and a Chinese proxy in the Far East. Time for us to get serious about intensive cooperation to Putin to help him fix that toxic waste zone that is the Russian military in exchange for an end to Russian support for Iran's nuke program and a massive increase in US trade and investment into the Russian oil industry. France and Russia are both trying to balance us and the muslims. But whereas France is not an ally, never will be, and is already gone over to the EUrabians, Russia can be transformed into a friendly rival given the right diplomacy. New Entente: US + Israel + India + Turkey + Russia. Dream it, believe it, make it happen.
#52
Iyot, Today's Strategypage has a high level summary of the past decade of activity in Chechnya - would you say that it's a fair handed description?
It's at:
http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=RUSSIA.HTM
#53
Lyot-Is this what these hostage taking terrorists are basically saying:
Free Chechnya or else dead kids, bombings. Right? Deadly blackmail. I had a feeling that the tolerance of blackmail as a normal part of daily life would fit somewhere in this discussion. I saw plenty of it myself in eastern Europe: WIDESPREAD APATHY about AND ACCEPTANCE of BLACKMAIL. It is a corrupted moral left over from the Soviet days. Topic for another day...
Lyot-I wish that violence would stop there, too. But my wishing won't stop that terrorist from shooting, will it.
#54
This will never end until 1 of 2 outcomes occur.
1. Islam changes, decides to become a real religion and join humanity.
2. The world exterminates every trace of Islam from the face of the earth.
We've given Islam over 900 years to take option 1. They have consistently refused to do so. Therefore, it is in my personal opinion, time for the world to commit to option 2. I have no mercy, compassion or pity for any muslim or those following Islam until they take option 1, or no longer exist. If they wish to act human, then the human race will welcome them with open arms. Until then, they are plague to be wiped out.
#55
Chechnya isn't about nation building. It isn't about diplomacy with Chechen murderers. It is about putting down a criminal revolt.
Period.
And Lyo,t that village in Russia, village of Samaskhi? It wasn't Russian Army. It was Interior Ministry troops. You didnt mention that did you? Like it or not that is a HUGE difference, at least for me.
This action has been called a massacre, but by international law, it was murder, if in fact it was a massacre. But it was no war crime.
So don't log on here and jerk off about your credentials in dealing with Chechen refugees and twist facts as they can be found.
And the 250 number? How was that come by. Did the Red Cross count the bodies; did Chechen muslims count the bodies. Or did they just pull a number out of thin air, as they usually do? Which is it? I want a reliable source, not Amnesty, not any 'human rights organization, but from official sources.
#56
Silentbrick> It is a "real religion" with all the signs of brutality and intolerance that all other "real religions" have also portrayed in the areas they've governed.
And "they" is not a monolithic group that has "refused" to do something. On my part I think you should keep your "lack of mercy, compassion, and pity" for the specific terrorists, rather than try to spread it on all practitioners of Islam and demand that the whole of Islam changes before you show any mercy on any Muslim child.
#57
AK (47): "... brutality and intolerance that all other "real religions" have also portrayed in the areas they've governed."
Past tense is correct. But there are some "real" religions that did not. Buddhism comes to mind.
See, there is this magical device called "separation of church and state". In the case of Islam, there are built defence mechanisms into its core against such a separation, Islam=state, and beside being religion, it is also a political ideology. That is a major problem.
As for differing groups of Islam, be so kind and please elucidate which one did not refuse to do something. Better yet, which one "agreed" to do something, as the previous may be too ambiguous.
I do mean a major sect of Islam that is not presently hallucinating about jihad an khilafah.
Ahmadiyyans don't count, they are considered non-islamic apostates by sunnis and shias likewise.
#58
I'm not talking about "sects", I'm talking about people and populations. Bosnian muslims for example haven't gone on any sort of jihad -- on the opposite they've had Serb christian "jihad" waged against them.
And Turkey's muslims are ofcourse presently busier hallucinating about EU membership than about waging jihadi war.
Bosnians, not entirely true. Serbians were returning the jihad that Bosnians were waging during WW2 through their Muslim SS corps.
Unfortunately, AQ got a pretty nice foothold in Bosnia and I would not be surprised to see some return on their "investment".
As for Turks, they are mostly on the Islam perifery, sort of secular Islam if you will, only outwardly Islamic. But there are hard core jihadis amongst them as well, minority, but well hidden and able to operate because of assumptions like yours.
Bin Turki, a Saudi prince, has been inteviewed recently, and indignantly pointed out that the Islamist radicals... nothing to it, as they comprise only some 10% of muslims. I would say he is underestimating for obvious reasons.
But let's take that figure for granted. OK, let's see, 1.3 billion muslims, so that is... 130,000,000 jihadis. Yes, 130 million. That is an effin' mighty army. Don't you think?
#60
"Turks, they are mostly on the Islam perifery, sort of secular Islam if you will, only outwardly Islamic. But there are hard core jihadis amongst them as well, minority, but well hidden and able to operate because of assumptions like yours. "
If we are talking about the presence of isolated samples, then ofcourse there's hard core jihadists in Turkey as well, the same way there exist Christian Neonazis and other racists in each and every Western country. So I'm making no "assumptions" here -- the assumptions are only made by those who want to see all populations as monolithic because it's convenient.
Do you think that the Serbs would have waged no war, had Muslims never cooperated with the SS? That's just an *excuse*, of the type that could be used to justify every terrorist act from 9/11 to Chechenya.
And as for the rest, since I've never disputed the danger of Islamofascism, you're preaching to the choir. An organized 10% can overthrow whole governments and rule over the other 90% -- as has happened before.
#61
"Do you think that the Serbs would have waged no war, had Muslims never cooperated with the SS?"
No, of course not. Balkan is just littered with ethnic/religious groups that would go after others' throats given opportunity and excuse. And if you look into history, you would probably find a plenty of justifications in any given year going back at least 600 years.
Right or wrong, Serbs felt under a threat from Bosnian muslims. There have been attrocities on both sides (if I take Croats out of the equation). For political reasons, the Serbian wrongdoings got much more press, perhaps because they were militaruily stronger and the liberal POV favored the underdog.
Rinse and repeat with Kosovo. Now Albanian Kosovars are obliterating old, centuries old churches and any traces of Serbian presence, whenever they can.
What can I say, Balkans. Since you have a Greek name, this is probably nothing new to you.
As for your comment about monolitic populations perception... That is not the case. However, in time of war, one does not have the luxury of making distinction. That approach would get you eliminated from the gene pool pretty quick.
I know, we are not yet at the stage of full scale war. At least not in the conventional sense. I am sorry to say it, but it is coming and it is inevitable. It would be assymetrical, confusing, and painful. Because it would take a while for people to realize that applying PC approach to war leads to a blind alley.
Armed militants with explosives strapped to their bodies stormed a Russian school in a region bordering Chechnya on Wednesday, corralling hundreds of hostages —many of them children— into a gymnasium and threatening to blow up the building if surrounding Russian troops attacked. Casualty reports varied widely. At least two people were confirmed killed, including a school parent, but an official in the command operation said on condition of anonymity early Thursday that 16 people were killed 12 inside the school, two who died in a hospital and two others whose bodies still lay outside and could not be removed because of gunfire. The official said 13 were wounded. Camouflage-clad special forces carrying assault rifles encircled Middle School No. 1 in the North Ossetian town of Beslan. Earlier, a little girl in a flowered dress fled the school holding a soldier's hand; officials said about a dozen other people managed to escape by hiding in a boiler room.
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 1:24:39 AM ||
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#1
well i guess the proven "useless" UN did their jobs. I bet when the criminals hear that the UN security council called for them too give up they will just drop on the ground in fright. What are they gonna do next call for sanctions against the attackers?
#2
"In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front," Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov told reporters before the hostage-taking.
Sounds like the ole' bear is waking up, but very slowly. Personally, I think if this goes on a little longer there will be a "accidental" media blackout there and "poof" the goons will be dealt with! However, this "In essence"/"unseen enemy" crap has got to stop. Much like 9/11 for us, if you look back there have been MANY acts of war declared on us that should've been answered with our own declaration of war! And we (RBers) know who the enemy is, they're NOT unseen! I pray for those kids, though, who are caught up in the middle of this mess. Haven't heard much from Gentle now, have we?
Posted by: BA ||
09/02/2004 11:06 Comments ||
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A man suspected of involvement in an armed raid by militants into the Russian region of Ingushetia, which borders Chechnya, on June 21-22, was arrested on Wednesday, a source in Ingush law enforcement services said on Thursday. Daud Chibiyev, a resident of the Chechen capital Grozny born in 1982, was arrested in Nazran, Ingushetia.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 1:08:42 AM ||
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Islamic militants freed seven truck drivers from India, Kenya and Egypt on Wednesday after holding them hostage in Iraq for six weeks, offering a ray of hope to a dozen other foreigners still in captivity.
U.S. warplanes struck at the city of Falluja, west of Baghdad, late on Wednesday in what the American military called a precision attack on safe houses used by associates of al-Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Iraqi medical sources said at least eight people were killed.
It was the fate of hostages that dominated diplomacy.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
09/02/2004 12:37:46 AM ||
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#1
No need to worry about the French reporters. They are just fine. It's just taking longer than expected for Paris to get all the ransom money together. Since the TotalElfFina scandal it's been tougher to maintain big liquid pools of French politico slush money.
#2
I was just skimming the French press about the hostage issue. And in the Figaro I came across one of the most outrageous comment I can remember reading in a French paper. Here goes:
Sorry for the French but I wanted to preserve the original (Figaro links expire the next day). Basically they are saying that the French efforts to influence opinions have worked and they have the sympathy of Arafat, Ghadafi, the sunni and shi'ite islamists, Hamas, Hizbollah and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, who have condemmed the kidnapping of the journalists.
#4
Whose 'unique' sympathy, precisely? Not JFM's; not anyone I've spoken to. I guess they're referring to the clumsy crocodile tears of Hamas, Hezbollah etc. French realpolitik is so utterly amoral and cynical it's a self-parody. Madness.
#5
Of course the French are superior in every way.
I read a book. The French: portrait of a people
by De Gramont in the 1970's that gave me a good insight to the vanity of the French state. Writen by a French person it has a unique insight.
Having a wife that teaches French and who has traveled in France does not hurt. She also holds them in low regard in many respects mostly politically.
#6
TGA: What's it like living next door to this kind of thinking?
I used to go to Paris a couple of times a month on business. The first 24 hours my overiding impression was always, "these people are f*cked up". But then I'd succumb to the reality distortion field and enjoy myself till the end of the trip. Afterwards, I'd always feel like I had gone through a temporary period of mild insanity.
#7
Whenever the Parisians got to me...I'd take the train to Brittany and enjoy spending time with real French peoples. Though they consider themselves Britons, for the most part. Or better yet, to the south and the town of Aubagne, the home of the Foreign Legion. Again, far enough from Paris to be enjoyed, and for Americans...appreciated.
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