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2021-10-20 Home Front: Politix
Trump's Postmortem Roasting of Powell Could Burn Him in the End By Jack Shafer
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Posted by Besoeker 2021-10-20 00:58|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11134 views ]  Top

#1 A high road missed indeed. The judgment of the departed is the domain of the Almighty. He does not require our assistance or harshing commentary.
Posted by Besoeker 2021-10-20 01:20||   2021-10-20 01:20|| Front Page Top

#2 Plenty of people agree with President Trump. One would not expect Mr. Shafer to be one of them.
Posted by trailing wife 2021-10-20 03:42||   2021-10-20 03:42|| Front Page Top

#3 

Mai = My Lai
Posted by Omomolet Phutch9064 2021-10-20 06:24||   2021-10-20 06:24|| Front Page Top

#4 
I agree with Posts #1, #2, and #3.

GOD sits in Final Judgement of all Deeds, GOOD and BAD.

With that said. Trump is correct in saying RINO. Mr. Powell floated politically as the wind blew in DC. An DC used him as a Poster Child to promoted their image.
Posted by NN2N1 2021-10-20 06:59||   2021-10-20 06:59|| Front Page Top

#5 Truth = Smear. Another entry for the NewSpeak dictionary.
Posted by M. Murcek 2021-10-20 06:59||   2021-10-20 06:59|| Front Page Top

#6 Except they found loads of chemical weapons that were supposed to have been destroyed. Even after that, seem to have been a panic when ISIS overran the facility the coalition was using to dispose of the stuff. Let's bury the LIE that there were no WMD. If you don't think chemical weapons are not WMD even though they've been treated as such since the end of the Second World War, then you won't mind some being stored in your neighborhood.
Posted by Procopius2k 2021-10-20 07:18||   2021-10-20 07:18|| Front Page Top

#7 ^ Meth is a chemical weapon and its cooked in just about every US city.

BTW: Some Chemical weapons did exist.
We had enough soldiers exposed to prove them to know so. But the MASSIVE amounts claimed to have been in his hands by Bush. Later we had MSM, WaPo, NYT and CNN telling us they were moved further up north and across the border into Syria.... our next politically stage war.
Posted by NN2N1 2021-10-20 07:53||   2021-10-20 07:53|| Front Page Top

#8 we had MSM, WaPo, NYT and CNN telling us they were moved further up north and across the border into Syria

Say it with me: "The old shell game."
Posted by M. Murcek 2021-10-20 07:57||   2021-10-20 07:57|| Front Page Top

#9 Trump's entire statement (link is to his website.) Does not seem vitriolic or off-color to me. Hardly dance on a grave type stuff, at least it seems to me. YMMV.
Posted by M. Murcek 2021-10-20 08:08||   2021-10-20 08:08|| Front Page Top

#10 The last mental image i have of mr Powell is of he and then president GHW Bush telling Gen Swarzkopf that he couldn't chase Saddam's army to Bagdad. Not a good image.
Posted by irish rage boy  2021-10-20 08:58||   2021-10-20 08:58|| Front Page Top

#11 Nothing that Pravda / our Wokesters claim about the hideous sins of OrangeAdolf is true.

That said, Trump ought to have a bit more respect for the dead -- unless his real purpose for existence is, as Kissinger said, to "expose the pretenses of our era." That alone may make it all worth all the fuss.
Posted by Merrick Ferret 2021-10-20 09:43||   2021-10-20 09:43|| Front Page Top

#12 I used to have a T-shirt that said "We should forgive our enemies. Right after they are taken out back and shot." Over the top? Less and less all the time these days.
Posted by M. Murcek 2021-10-20 09:57||   2021-10-20 09:57|| Front Page Top

#13 #10 The last mental image i have of mr Powell is of he and then president GHW Bush telling Gen Swarzkopf that he couldn't chase Saddam's army to Bagdad. Not a good image.
Posted by irish rage boy

This was the correct decision. Leave Iraq wounded, and just strong enough to be a counter weight to Iran... The plan was to push Iraq out of Kuwait and punish them heavily, not to occupy the country...see 2003 for the counter argument and negative results of an occupation/nation building.

And there was no WMD program in Iraq leading up to the second war...our guys attached to the survey team only reported finding a few old rockets with chemicals in them. The Duelfer Report is a good reference. I do remember hearing that after his capture Saddam stated that he bluffed the Shia with reports that he still had chemicals to keep them under control.

IMO there are two Powells - one the Military leader and the second, the poor politician...at times intertwined. I am appreciative and likely owe my life or some of my buddies lives to the correct decision that Powell influenced Bush to make to push overwhelming force into the theater to decisively win.
Posted by Tennessee 2021-10-20 10:23||   2021-10-20 10:23|| Front Page Top

#14 The article is what happens when you go writing at Allegory 'R' Us drunk at 2:30 am.

Rabbit punch a defenseless bunny? Junior high lit teacher would have had my ears on a necklace.

Powell was many things. In the early WOT days, among my Anti-WOT orbit, he was the blackfaced cover for war crimes. Here, he is being used as a dirk in a political op/ed. I guess his appeal is selective.
Posted by swksvolFF 2021-10-20 10:28||   2021-10-20 10:28|| Front Page Top

#15 Seriously? People still believe the WMD lie?

Some unusable ancient junk is not a functional WMD program. Powell lied. Bush lied. They all lied to us. They knew what they were doing. They didn't care.
Posted by Punky Elmigum9411 2021-10-20 11:10||   2021-10-20 11:10|| Front Page Top

#16 Yes but Trump was right about Powell.

Powell never had our "allies" help pay for the war as promised. He endorsed Osama Obama when he was clearly a treasonous threat. And some of his public attacks on Trump were never based on actual issues. Pretty RINO sad.

Posted by Woodrow 2021-10-20 11:54||   2021-10-20 11:54|| Front Page Top

#17 The New York Times discovers WMD in Iraq
By John Hayward | October 15, 2014

Via Human Events

Excerpted: "From 2004 to 2011, American and American-trained Iraqi troops repeatedly encountered, and on at least six occasions were wounded by, chemical weapons remaining from years earlier in Saddam Hussein's rule"

"In all, American troops secretly reported finding roughly 5,000 chemical warheads, shells or aviation bombs, according to interviews with dozens of participants, Iraqi and American officials, and heavily redacted intelligence documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act."

More at the link, Facts are annoying, I know, especially, if you have held onto a fallacy for so long...
John 8:32 - Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Posted by Fling Slolurt8561 2021-10-20 13:02||   2021-10-20 13:02|| Front Page Top

#18 LOL it's hilarious how people on this website actually trust anything the New York Times says. I mean, it warns you right there on the masthead: it's the New York Times!

This is the same publication that ran a column arguing that we should teach black children not to befriend white children. Taylor Lorenz got caught lying twice in six weeks.

If the NYT said shit tastes good would you eat a mouthful?
Posted by Omomolet Phutch9064 2021-10-20 13:47||   2021-10-20 13:47|| Front Page Top

#19 Ref #17: There are people here at this site (regulars and lurkers) who assisted with the UN effort to destroy Saddam's bugs and gasses.... that is until the Canal Hotel went kaboom in Aug 2003 and United Nations' Special Rep in Iraq Sérgio Vieira de Mello was killed and over 100, including human rights lawyer and political activist Dr. Amin Mekki Medani. After that, everyone rucked up and unassed the AO.

Yes, we've established that Saddam was up to no good with his bugs and gasses. Most everyone here is convinced of that.

Posted by Besoeker 2021-10-20 14:13||   2021-10-20 14:13|| Front Page Top

#20 What #9 said. I don't think Trump's statement is disrespectful. I don't this Trump's statement will have the effect that Jack Shafer would like it to.
Posted by JohnQC 2021-10-20 15:05||   2021-10-20 15:05|| Front Page Top

#21 Overthrow Saddam? Absolutely. Destroy his regime's ability to make WMD.

But we should have left the rest of the snake i.e. the Ba'ath Party intact. Should never have occupied or tried to democratize that wretched place.

On the above points I believe Powell was correct. But maybe my memory's fading in my old age. Who knows... let history judge
Posted by Merrick Ferret 2021-10-20 15:07||   2021-10-20 15:07|| Front Page Top

#22 The good stuff was moved to Syria, with Russian help.
Posted by KBK 2021-10-20 15:54||   2021-10-20 15:54|| Front Page Top

#23 It goes without saying that any Trump article in the mainstream media is anti-Trump BS.

As for Saddam, he and his hell-spawn needed to be whacked. I'm OK with deploying the full might of the US military to do that even if it is just over a long weekend and we leave right after. Bash and dash.

At the time, I thought trying to turn Iraq into an actual country was a worthwhile goal. We did it quite successfully with Japan, after all. Although, we did have to sit on them for a decade or so.

In retrospect, it was bad idea. The Iraqis were stuck at a tribal level of social evolution and were simply not ready to be a nation. A worthwhile goal, maybe. But not achievable without more effort than we were willing to put into the job.
Posted by SteveS 2021-10-20 16:14||   2021-10-20 16:14|| Front Page Top

#24 More at the link, Facts are annoying, I know, especially, if you have held onto a fallacy for so long...
John 8:32 - Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Posted by: Fling Slolurt8561

I don't need to read your "link" we were there...had guys on the survey team. You can trust your google or you can get your boots in the sand to determine the facts.

BTW - Were these few old buried shells unfilled or the few rockets filled with degraded chemical weapons worth 4,400 dead US soldiers and 32,000 wounded...and the uncounted thousands of soldier suicides? The WMD PROGRAM in Iraq was a FALLACY...it did not exist...no plants or production facilities pumping out WMD to arm Bin Laden. Hell, Saddam hated Bin Laden by the way. No connection there either.

The negative effect the occupation had on our Army was distinct and still being felt...all the good leaders killed, wounded, the ones used up and got out, after multiple multiple rotations...a few good ones stayed and the rest were backfilled by the likes of Milley who is only capable of mouthing buzzwords like "branches and sequels" and "righteous strike." The effect of this horrible decision lingers...it is actually not over:(

Posted by Tennessee 2021-10-20 16:31||   2021-10-20 16:31|| Front Page Top

#25 As for Saddam, he and his hell-spawn needed to be whacked. I'm OK with deploying the full might of the US military to do that even if it is just over a long weekend and we leave right after. Bash and dash.

Posted by SteveS

Well said.
Posted by Tennessee 2021-10-20 16:33||   2021-10-20 16:33|| Front Page Top

#26  Saddam hated Bin Laden by the way. No connection there either.

It was reported that Al Qaeda cadres trained at Salman Pak alongside Saddam Hussein’s other pet jihadi organization cadres, and were given research projects for summer break in Afghanistan that included killing puppies with war gasses. But the main Al Qaeda connection in Iraq is through Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, later formally called Al Qaeda in Iraq when Zarqawi became Al Qaeda’s #2.

Fred laid it out in yellow hilight here.

A worthwhile goal, maybe. But not achievable without more effort...

Looking at the experimental data, I am forced to conclude it is not achievable period. But we had to test the proposition. I don’t think Iran will be able to civilize them, either — they have poor control over their small domestic population of Sunni Arabs.
Posted by trailing wife 2021-10-20 16:57||   2021-10-20 16:57|| Front Page Top

#27 That was one of Mueller's lies. He gave the impression that the FBI, the trusted organization that would never lie, approved of the invasion as absolutely necessary. Because Iraq was going to give WMD to Al-Qaeda, despite Saddam utterly hating Islamists and Al-Qaeda utterly hating nationalists like Saddam.

Iraq giving WMDs to Al Qaeda would be as absurd as the Jews giving Zyklon-B to Hitler.

WMD was just an excuse to do what they wanted to do for a long time. PNAC in 1996, read it all.

"That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor."

On October 31, 1998 President Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act that made it official US policy to support “regime change” in Iraq.
Posted by Omomolet Phutch9064 2021-10-20 17:27||   2021-10-20 17:27|| Front Page Top

#28 #26 Saddam hated Bin Laden by the way. No connection there either.

It was reported that Al Qaeda cadres trained at Salman Pak alongside Saddam Hussein’s other pet jihadi organization cadres, and were given research projects for summer break in Afghanistan that included killing puppies with war gasses. But the main Al Qaeda connection in Iraq is through Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, later formally called Al Qaeda in Iraq when Zarqawi became Al Qaeda’s #2.

Fred laid it out in yellow hilight here.

Posted by: trailing wife

Bottom line up front is that Saddam was in no way connected with the 9/11 planning, execution, nor attack...and did not have an active WMD program to enable AQ. 9/11 was all on Bin Laden.

I am not sure I get your point above...I stated that Saddam hated Bin Laden. Whether or not different Sunni extremists that later branded themselves as AQ in Iraq passed through there doesn't change that fact. We all agree Zarqawi was crazy and dangerous and had AQ links.

Just because Saddam and Bin Laden both hated the US...doesn't mean they were buds. They were competitors in a way...and if it were possible, Bin Laden would likely have killed Saddam and emplaced a proxy in his place giving OBL C2 over the Iraqi military remotely.
Posted by Tennessee 2021-10-20 17:57||   2021-10-20 17:57|| Front Page Top

#29 #27 That was one of Mueller's lies. He gave the impression that the FBI, the trusted organization that would never lie, approved of the invasion as absolutely necessary. Because Iraq was going to give WMD to Al-Qaeda, despite Saddam utterly hating Islamists and Al-Qaeda utterly hating nationalists like Saddam.

Iraq giving WMDs to Al Qaeda would be as absurd as the Jews giving Zyklon-B to Hitler.

Posted by: Omomolet Phutch9064

Yep.
Posted by Tennessee 2021-10-20 18:02||   2021-10-20 18:02|| Front Page Top

#30 Some unusable ancient junk is not a functional WMD program.

and what they released in the Tokyo subway was weak homemade stuff. It killed none the less. Like I posted, you want it stored in your neighborhood?
Posted by Procopius2k 2021-10-20 18:23||   2021-10-20 18:23|| Front Page Top

#31 Just because Saddam and Bin Laden both hated the US...doesn't mean they were buds.


The enemy of my enemy.

By the way remember the centrifuges found buried in the sands? The Mustard gas attack on the Kurds? Our SeaBees finding a warehouse with Chlorine gas canisters with Air Force labels?
Posted by Woodrow 2021-10-20 21:47||   2021-10-20 21:47|| Front Page Top

#32 Bottom line: No American presidential administration would have permitted Saddam to remain in power after 9/11. The dispute was over how to remove him and what should follow.

The best strategy was that which the U.K. Foreign Office recommended: Cut off the head of the snake and leave the Ba'athist party regime intact. Perhaps carve out a US protectorate for Kurdistan and put a forward air base there.

Don't know what Powell's view was of that proposal, but the mro-con zealots around W surely bear most of the blame for ignoring such wise, historically-informed counsel. Pity.
Posted by Merrick Ferret 2021-10-20 21:54||   2021-10-20 21:54|| Front Page Top

23:50 trailing wife
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23:30 Skidmark
23:27 Skidmark
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22:52 Chealing Chomotle4158
22:50 Chealing Chomotle4158
22:24 Silentbrick
22:24 trailing wife
22:22 Merrick Ferret
22:11 Merrick Ferret
22:08 Merrick Ferret
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22:00 Ebbomoger Speaking for Boskone4589
21:54 Merrick Ferret
21:50 Woodrow
21:47 Woodrow
21:46 Merrick Ferret
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