Article

2013-04-01 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2013-04-01 14:40|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11134 views ] Top

#1 I think what Jennifer Rubin is missing is that it was the emphasis on nation building and democracy that followed the Iraq war that created the Arab Spring and by extension the mess in Libya, Egypt and Syria. A strong case could be made that it was a huge factor in getting Obama elected.

So although I supported the Iraq Invasion(and still do on principal) supporting the pro-Democracy movement is a lot harder to do and the fine line is too fine to debate with most people.

We should have put a strongman in power and driven into Syria right away. We are good at kicking the snot out of people, not so much at winning the hearts & minds (especially when half of our political class undermines us at every opportunity). So do what we're good at and pass the baton.

Posted by rjschwarz 2013-04-01 15:06|| 2013-04-01 15:06|| Front Page Top

#2 RJS, I concur mostly. I did and do support the Iraq war. However, the only way I support "nation building" is using the Doug MacArthur methods.

Kick the snot out of the coutry and take over. Then run it properly showing them how it's done till they can do it themselves, see Japan.

Posted by AlanC 2013-04-01 15:22|| 2013-04-01 15:22|| Front Page Top

#3 I did and do support the Iraq war. However, the only way I support "nation building" is using the Doug MacArthur methods.
AlanC, I also did support the Iraq war, however I had my doubts on nation building. My apprehension was that it was a mistake to try nation building in a stone age, Muslim besotted kaffir society. I held my judgement when smarter people than me said nation building was possible, so I waited to see if they are right. I certainly had a sobering wake up call and will never fall for that idiotic delusion again.

Posted by tipper 2013-04-01 16:15|| 2013-04-01 16:15|| Front Page Top

#4 tipper, jawohl.

If you're not going to emulate Doug M. then skip the nation building and go directly to the shampoo method.

Lather, rinse and repeat as necessary. I'm not sure there was any way to nation build that kind of society but if you want to try it there's only one chance for success. Otherwise .........

Posted by AlanC 2013-04-01 17:01|| 2013-04-01 17:01|| Front Page Top

#5 I don't think the Doug M. method would apply to places in the middle east. Japan was a nation and not a simple collection of tribes. Problem in the Muddle east is that their priorities are something like:

Themselves
Their IMAN (i.e. Islam)
Their family (behind IMAN: see Honor Killing)
their Tribe
Fellow Muslims
anyone else.

Posted by CrazyFool 2013-04-01 17:21|| 2013-04-01 17:21|| Front Page Top

#6 To some extent the Europeans tried the MacArthur method and the nations in question were unable or unwilling to take the example.

Plus if you occupy an inch of Muslim land, when you leave they will claim they chases you out. Better to simply break stuff, hand it over to some bastard we can deal with, and move on immediately.

Posted by Rjschwarz 2013-04-01 17:58|| 2013-04-01 17:58|| Front Page Top

#7 How powerful a message would iy have been to have taken out Saddam, taken out Assad and then Hezzbolah and set up a major base in Iraqi Kudistan to be able to strike deep into Iran with planes and copters.

Let France and Russia have their sleazy oil deals in exchange for cooperation (or at least not opposing).

I think Iran would have played a different game once they'd changed their shorts

Posted by Rjschwarz 2013-04-01 18:05|| 2013-04-01 18:05|| Front Page Top

#8 The current American administration is doing a very poor job of nation building at home. Argueably nation destroying. So I suspect it is very difficult to do nation building in the middle east when most of the people hate you.

I think I answered my own argument.

Posted by Airandee 2013-04-01 19:54|| 2013-04-01 19:54|| Front Page Top

#9 The Animal Planet Channel had an interesting program on a pride of African lions. The females were being harassed by a pack of hyenas. Whenever a female made a kill, the pack would hound the lioness resulting in her chasing several of the hyenas, but allowing others to steal her kill. They kept this up with all the lionesses since the female lions were not strong or fast enough to run the hyenas down. Finally, the old man returned from his territorial jaunt and surveyed the situation as it unfolded. He identified the matriarch of the hyena clan and took right after it, swiftly running it down and breaking its neck. The effect was to throw the entire pack into pandemonium since it then had to sort out its hierarchical pecking order. This gave the female of the pride the time to hunt and provide for their cubs.

I believe the ME hyenas are a bit too busy to cause major problems at the moment compared to over 10 years ago. You think Syria, Egypt, and Iran with Hezbollah in Lebanon are coordinating an attack on Israel at the moment or a bit preoccupied?

Posted by Procopius2k 2013-04-01 23:36|| 2013-04-01 23:36|| Front Page Top

23:36 Procopius2k
23:28 Procopius2k
23:15 CrazyFool
23:03 JosephMendiola
22:28 JosephMendiola
22:25 JosephMendiola
22:09 newc
22:08 JosephMendiola
21:55 Procopius2k
21:44 Barbara
21:09 Glenmore
21:06 Glenmore
21:03 Glenmore
20:35 Pappy
20:03 Steve White
19:58 DJ Curtis C
19:56 Barbara
19:54 Airandee
19:49 Airandee
19:47 Steve White
19:44 JosephMendiola
19:41 JosephMendiola
19:34 Procopius2k
19:33 JosephMendiola
Merry-Go-Blog