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2012-10-29 Africa North

Two Drones, AC-130 Gunship, and Targets Painted in Benghazi - Breitbart

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Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 03:28|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11127 views ] Top

#1 Besoeker and others, what do you make of the comments last night on Fox (Geraldo interview) by retired 4-Star General Jack Keane yesterday:

The consulate was stormed.
There was no gunships in the region.
There was nothing that could have prevented it.
It was over in about an hour.
Forces got there as soon as possible.
To politicize this is very hurtful.

I have problems with Gen. Keanes comments based on some info released. He said AFRICOM had little in available resources. Two drones were available and used for surveillance. The feed did go back to Washington. He did say forces were available in Italy that got there ASAP (24 hours). It does not seem that nothing could have been done. He also claims that the drone feed was not clear enough to distinguish friends (if there were any) from foes.

It does seem that the most that could have been done would have been in the area of prevention. Emails and security reports indicated that the situation on the ground building up to 911 would indicate that more security should have been made available rather than less. One report that puzzles me that no one has commented on is that there reports of foreign voices among the attackers. It would seem that it would be important what nationality the foreign voices were, e.g. were they Iranian? It would seem that a Tier 1 or 2 force could be staged and scrambled fairly quickly? Does a Tier 1 force come with their own transportation? The claim was that they were at the airport in Benghazi but could not find transportation to the consulate.

I would like to see some basic questions answered such as: Who, what, when, why, where, and how for all players? I don't think we know much about this major clusterphuck. There has been too much obfuscation, disinformation, and ambiguity coming from Washington. I'd like to see more hearings. How about interviewing those 30 people who were saved at the consulate? How about interviewing the decision makers?

Posted by JohnQC 2012-10-29 10:29|| 2012-10-29 10:29|| Front Page Top

#2 I re-read this posting and realized it was rather poorly organized. Keane did say that two drones were dispatched; one initially which was replaced with another as the first needed fuel. His general take was not much more could be done other than what was done.

Posted by JohnQC 2012-10-29 10:42|| 2012-10-29 10:42|| Front Page Top

#3 (Geraldo interview) by retired 4-Star General Jack Keane

Says Geraldo found an apologist to shore up his boy's eroding situation.

If these are the facts, just give all the applicable Congressional committees direct access to the players, which we already know has been refused.

Posted by Procopius2k 2012-10-29 10:45|| 2012-10-29 10:45|| Front Page Top

This previewed OK, I sure hope it doesn't blow the boundaries.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2012-10-29 10:52|| 2012-10-29 10:52|| Front Page Top

#5 Ouch.

Posted by swksvolFF 2012-10-29 11:00|| 2012-10-29 11:00|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't remember whether it was this general or not, but I did hear yesterday that some of the injured from the fight are still in the hospital.

Posted by Sherry 2012-10-29 11:02|| 2012-10-29 11:02|| Front Page Top

#7 What you are looking for John (what we are all seeking) is a chronological After Action Report (AAR), which would contain wat we used to call the "Five W's" (your who, what, when, where, and how). Not exactly rocket science is it? What would soon follow and be very closely studied at Fort Leavenworth would be... "Lessons Learned".

Ques: Does a Tier 1 force come with their own transportation?Answer: Tier 1 enjoys absolute priority for airlift, to include capabilities not found or available in DoD.

Ques: It would seem that a Tier 1 or 2 force could be staged and scrambled fairly quickly? Answer: All US missions abroad have an on-the-shelf, Non-Combatant Evacuation (NEO) plan. Execution and timing are key, essential elements of a successful planning effort.

Voice intercept comment: Out of 365 dates on the calendar, if asked to pick a date for monitoring signals in a troubled, middle-eastern area, what date might you select ?

Ironically, General Keane used the descriptors "delay and procrastination" regarding the administration's reluctance to action UBL. Gateway Pundit video.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 11:11|| 2012-10-29 11:11|| Front Page Top

#8 and I will never forget the look on Lt. Col Woods face as his interview with Hannity ended.

Answer to the question "Could you have made a difference?"

With deep hurt on his face and in his eyes, he answered, "I wish we had been there."

Fox has been using it all weekend.

Posted by Sherry 2012-10-29 11:13|| 2012-10-29 11:13|| Front Page Top

#9 Also interesting to note, virtually the first person to go media-wide with the Mohamaad Video story was United States Ambassador to the United Nations, Ms. Susan Rice.

Coincidence possibly, but perhaps the alleged "host-nation" approval for military action was only one component of the administration's approval process.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 11:21|| 2012-10-29 11:21|| Front Page Top

#10 Two drones, one AC-130 and the targets were painted but the guy who could give the order to pull the trigger went to bed. He was derelict in his duty and not for the first time either.

Am I wrong? Tell me I'm wrong.

But even if I am then why weren't Marines already there to provide the security that had already been denied several times before the attack? The security that any halfway reasonable person could see was necessary?

Further, why couldn't we have just left Qdaffy alone in the first place? Did anybody really believe that whoever replaces him will be better? Does anybody really believe this Arab Spring thing is anything more than Islamic radicals attempting to impose Sharia on their Caliphate?

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2012-10-29 11:25|| 2012-10-29 11:25|| Front Page Top

#11 If help was available and forces were asked to "stand down," what the hell kind of message is that to our armed services everywhere. The message to me is that when you have your backs up against the wall, don't expect help. That is a terrible message to send to the troops.

Posted by JohnQC 2012-10-29 11:30|| 2012-10-29 11:30|| Front Page Top

#12 With due respect to the retired general, he was not on the ground. Another point to consider, Gen Carter Ham was returned to Bremerton under "mysterious" circumstances after Benghazi (did he have too much info). FYI, here is a fairly comprehensive timeline from Peter Ferrara at Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/10/25/benghazi-obamas-actions-amount-to-a-shameful-dereliction-of-duty/

Posted by warthogswife 2012-10-29 13:27|| 2012-10-29 13:27|| Front Page Top

#13 from Michael Yon
Pentagon Statement on General Ham

George Little tweet:

"Let me be clear to those spreading rumors: Gen. Carter Ham of AFRICOM has NOT been replaced. He's an excellent leader, doing fantastic job."

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2012-10-29 13:58|| 2012-10-29 13:58|| Front Page Top

#14 tweet?

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2012-10-29 14:24|| 2012-10-29 14:24|| Front Page Top

#15 It would seem that the drone flying about was armed. Otherwise why would the folks on the ground have painted the mortar target with a laser, which could potentially give away their position? If there was an armed asset overhead, who, specifically, made the decision not to use it?

Two points: This smells a whole lot like when Valerie Jarrett talked O out of taking out UBL, not once but twice. Was she advising the Pres in this situation too?

The nation is incredibly indebted to those retired Navy SEALS and some friendly Libyan militia. Were it not for their actions, the death toll could easily be 34 rather than 4.

Posted by remoteman 2012-10-29 14:30|| 2012-10-29 14:30|| Front Page Top

#16 #15 It would seem that the drone flying about was armed. Otherwise why would the folks on the ground have painted the mortar target with a laser, which could potentially give away their position? If there was an armed asset overhead, who, specifically, made the decision not to use it? Remoteman.

A telling key and essential piece of information would be the timing (precise chronology of events) of the rescue bird and survivors leaving Benghazi Airport enroute to Tripoli, and the order to Return to Base (RTB) of any persistent surveillance drones, armed or otherwise, as well as any other platforms orbiting the site.

If the RTB of drones coincided with 'wheels up' of the rescue bird..... well, not so good for the stay-behind element. Nor will be looking too good for the decision maker(s) in post analysis phase.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 14:39|| 2012-10-29 14:39|| Front Page Top

#17 The most noticeable thing about Benghazi - there is still no clear picture of what happened. How long has it been now ... over 6 weeks since the incident.

The most reasonable cinclusion is that a clear picture of events NEVER existed on Sep 11 - even to our top commanders. They knew some details, but did not know others. The whole thing was never pulled together in real time. We don't have a command chain that can respond to a blurry series of events in an attack scenario. We have leaders who demand total clarity before they can reach a decision ... and it doesn't exist.

Posted by Raider 2012-10-29 14:55|| 2012-10-29 14:55|| Front Page Top

#18 On something of this magnitude there is absolutely no reason that the exact sequence of events is not known. It is also not believable that the what did he know and when did he know it cannot be answered.

Everyone I have heard of has denied issuing a stand down order, BUT, no one has spoken about who should have issued a weapons free order.

Is this all about waiting for President Present and therefore no one moved?

Posted by AlanC 2012-10-29 15:06|| 2012-10-29 15:06|| Front Page Top

#19 A "Clear picture" ....is constructed over time; minute by minute, event by event. It's called a "Common Operational Picture" or COP and is fed to decision makers via briefings, Situation Reports SITREPs, and hourly or event driven updates.

All intelligence, both stratetic and tactical feed the COP. The line between strategic and tactical is oftentimes blurred, but the COP is constantly updated. The COP of Benghazi continues to be built and assessed this very hour.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 15:10|| 2012-10-29 15:10|| Front Page Top

#20 I continue to hear the tired, bullshi*, meaningless term... "The Fog of War". Whenever I hear that term I default to assessing the speaker as an obfuscater or as having a paper arsehole.

Unknowns are labled "Ingelligence Gaps". Intelligence Gaps become the commander's Primary Intelligence Requirement or PIR. They usually come in sets of ten. An example might be:

Hybothetical Commander's "Top Ten" PIR
1. How many personnel assaulted the consulate and safe house?
2. Where was the marshalling area for the assault force?
3. To what location did the assault force retire?
4. What types of motor vehichles were used by the assault force?
5. How many members of the assault force were killed in action (EKIA), and where were the bodies taken for burial?
6. What types of weapons were used by the assault force?
7. What ethnic nationalities comprised the assault force.
8. Who many members of the assault force were wounded in action (EWIA), where were treated for injuries, or if flown out of country for treatment, when and to where?
9. Who is now claiming responsibility for the attack.
10. What are open source media reporting about the attack, and when did they begin their reporting.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 15:50|| 2012-10-29 15:50|| Front Page Top

#21 The "Top Ten" provided above help define the Common Operational Picture (COP). As intelligence "GAPS" are filled, new GAPS of lesser (or higher) priority may be placed on the Top Ten. Effective intelligence efforts are constantly focused on the Commander's PIR and the intelligence GAPS needed to refine the COP. This is (or should be) a continual process and exercise of refinement.

Posted by Besoeker 2012-10-29 16:01|| 2012-10-29 16:01|| Front Page Top

#22 Besoeker .. thanks for the explanation on the COP.

I think what we are seeing is the Fog Of Information - not the Fog of War. There is a very human tendency for human ebings (incl. decision makers) to give high emphasis to live video feeds. It's the same basic reason why people love to see live satellite pix of events on CNN. The human mind "believes" this information is more reliable - because you are seeing it in real time. Therefore, it is quite possible that the COP was set aside, in favor of the live feeds of images from the drones over Benghazi.

But what exactly can a drone TV camera show you in a situation like that? There are figures running around, there is weapon fire, there are buildings on fire and columns of smoke. It's not possible to pick out a demarcation that separates "good guys" from "bad guys". So how do you give an order to engage a target on the ground??

Without clear information from American ground participants - it's quite possible that key decision makers were faced with "information paralysis". Of course, this doesn't guarantee they would have made a call to respond with an aerial gunship ... but you will never know.

Posted by Raider 2012-10-29 16:16|| 2012-10-29 16:16|| Front Page Top

#23 John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

At the safe house, after 7 hours of battle, former Navy Seal Woods continued to fight, to paint the motor position with laser, continued to request a strike, over and over again, as the motor team's spotter walked each motor round closer and closer to the annex untl the annex was hit. Woods body was found slumped over the heavy machine gun. Hattip - Mr Wood's father, this afternoon.

Posted by wr 2012-10-29 17:44|| 2012-10-29 17:44|| Front Page Top

#24 The Panetta Doctrine

Posted by tipper 2012-10-29 17:53|| 2012-10-29 17:53|| Front Page Top

#25 Sorry, bad link. Try this:
The Panetta Doctrine

Posted by tipper 2012-10-29 17:56|| 2012-10-29 17:56|| Front Page Top

#26 Well, according to AFRICOM's own website, it was stood up on October 1, 2008..

Four years is an awfully long time for a major command to NOT have a SEAL team ready to go, especially in a region of the world where terrorists and pirates regularly operate.

Posted by Ptah 2012-10-29 19:17|| 2012-10-29 19:17|| Front Page Top

#27 This incident probably will cause Sec Ops Command to re-think where their forces are positioned.

Still ... there will always be a problem if a wave of terrorists make it over the outside wall and get in amongst the buildings of a US consulate. At that point overhead protection is of limited use. And very likely the jihadists learned that lesson from Benghazi.

Posted by Raider 2012-10-29 22:36|| 2012-10-29 22:36|| Front Page Top

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