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2007-12-24 India-Pakistan

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Posted by Seafarious 2007-12-24 00:00|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11132 views ] Top

#1 Oi vey, oi vey!

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-24 03:28|| 2007-12-24 03:28|| Front Page Top

#2 At one point, Modi said that an innocent Muslim man shot by the police months earlier deserved to be killed because he was a terrorist.

No. This is what he said:

Sohrabuddin, from whose possession large cache of AK 47 rifles were found, same Sohrabuddin whom police of four States were looking for, Sohrabuddin who attacks police, Sohrabuddin who maintains connections with Pakistan, who raises eyes on Gujarat, then what will my police do?

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 05:59|| 2007-12-24 05:59|| Front Page Top

#3 innocent Muslim man

Innocent muslim indeed. The gangster Sohrabuddin Sheikh had multiple charges for murder and extortion.

Sorabhuddin was in and out of jails in Gujarat and Madhya Pradesh and allegedly became a dreaded underworld operative. His operations spread across four states. He had 15 police cases against him in Madhya Pradesh, 7 in Gujarat, 2 in Maharashtra and one Rajasthan.

Sorabhuddin allegedly confessed to the Madhya Pradesh that he was close to Dawoods men. At the time of the arms landing, Dawood was in Karachi and all the arms I transported from Ahmedabad belonged to Dawood Ibrahim. After this operation, I realised that I was important to both Chhota Dawood and Latif, Dawood Ibrahim's frontman in Gujarat,

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 06:06|| 2007-12-24 06:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Modi's opponents in the Congress party faced an uphill task.

They couldn't nail him on development. There is electricity and running water in nearly every village in Gujarat (unlike the rest of India). There are world class roads (unlike the rest of India). There is massive industrialization (unlike the rest of India).

They couldn't nail him on security. There have not been the bombings seen in other Indian states.

They couldn't beat him in fund-raising. All those Gujarati Patels (who own about half the motels in the US) just love the man.

They couldn't beat him on personality. Their candidates were uninspiring. Modi, who is from a 'backward' caste knows how to play the crowd. He is a natural campaigner.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 07:15|| 2007-12-24 07:15|| Front Page Top

#5 There was also a backlash against attempts by the Congress party to label the riots as 'genocide' and a 'state sponsored pogrom'.

In answer to Parliament questions, the Federal Home Minister (from the Congress Party) provided the figures of casualties during the Gujarat riots:

790 Muslims killed, 254 Hindus killed, 2,500
wounded in all and 223 missing. These include hundreds shot as police fired on rioters.

500 muslims killed in mob violence. 1000 dead total. Gujarat state has a population of 40 million. Rioting was confined to a few areas.

A state that has the organizational ability to provide electrity and running water to all of its citizens is accused of 'organizing mass murder'.
Strange that these modern day Nazis could only kill 500 people in their organized campaign.
Yet they have the ability to build the largest POL refinery in the world.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 07:37|| 2007-12-24 07:37|| Front Page Top

#6 Indian Diamond Association in Israel welcomes Modi's win

Tel Aviv (PTI): The Indian Diamond Association in Israel (IDAI), comprising mostly of businessmen from Gujarat, has welcomed Narendra Modi's victory in Gujarat Assembly polls.

"We all wanted Modi to win and that's what has happened. We welcome his victory from the bottom of our heart and hope that he will be successful in his future plans," president of IDAI Ranjit Barmeja said.

About 30 Gujarati families engaged in diamond trade have been living in Israel since early 1980s, even before the establishment of diplomatic relations between India and Israel.

"When Modiji was here in Israel early this year we got an opportunity to meet him and what he said then about Gujarat and Diamond trade were positive signals of things to come. We all had expressed support for his victory", Barmeja added.

Trade in diamonds still constitutes about 60 per cent of the total bilateral trade between India and Israel which is almost touching the USD 3 billion mark this year.

In view of the opportunity, the State Bank of India opened a branch in the Israel Diamond Exchange (IDE) early this year.

The contribution of Gujarati diamond traders in making Israel one of the major centres of world diamond trade was recently recognised by the IDE when it decided to celebrate the festival of Diwali in its compound to mark a new business year for the Indian trading community.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 07:50|| 2007-12-24 07:50|| Front Page Top

#7 Thanks, John Frum. I was hoping you could add some analysis for us.

Posted by Seafarious 2007-12-24 10:23|| 2007-12-24 10:23|| Front Page Top

#8 Modi did take too long (dallying for about a day) to call for Indian Federal troops. The Indian Defence Minister George Fernandes was reportedly frustrated watching these riots on TV with no phone call from Modi. The PM Vajpayee was reportedly quite pissed off with Modi over this.

Unlike the Police, the Indian Army is very cautious about firing on civilians (flag marches typically suppress rioters.. nobody wants to tackle the army) and many hundreds killed would have been saved if troops were deployed just a day earlier.

Perhaps Modi is a cold hearted SOB. Perhaps he was more worried about his image as a can-do leader.

Doesn't make him the monster the leftists in the Indian media portray him as.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 11:01|| 2007-12-24 11:01|| Front Page Top

#9 Uh -Huh. "Hooray" for the BJP

12/24/07 India (International Christian Concern) Shortly after campaigning for Hindu nationalistic party in the run up to the state legislature election in Gujarat state, Hindu extremists attacked tribal Christians, including a nun, to punish them for supporting the Congress Party.

The attack took place at around 8 p.m. on December 19 in Baidiya village in Vadodara districts Kawant area while staffs and students of the Don Bosco School and Adivasi Shaishanik Arogya Kendra (Tribal Education and Health Centre) were staging a play on environmental issues for the villagers.

This is not just an attack on a minority religion, but it is a part of a wider conspiracy to deny human rights and fundamental rights (religious and voting rights) to the Adivasis (tribal or aboriginal people), create division among them, and keep alive the divisive agenda in order to fish in the troubled waters, Dr. John Dayal, president of the All India Catholic Union, told ICC.

Joseph Monty Rodrigues, the manager of the Don Bosco School described the attack, saying, As the children were staging the play, one Rathwa Harsingbhai Mansingbhai rushed in and removed the curtain forcefully and hit one of the students of Class IX, Suresh Narubhai Rathwa, on the head.

Later, another person, identified as Rathwa Pravinbhai, joined Mansingbhai to oppose the play.

Rodrigues gave a first person account in an email message, a copy of which is with ICC.

They (the miscreants) said the Fathers and Sisters of Don Bosco were supporters of the Congress Party and therefore they must not step into this village. They insulted us and our religion and abused us for being Christians, said Rodrigues.

At least 500 villagers were watching the play, which was organized by the Christians on an invitation by the village court.

The two miscreants also threatened to burn the Christians alive.

Apprehending more tensions, we stopped the play at once and packed up our things, added Rodrigues.

While the Christians were returning, some more people came to attack them.

We left for Kawant via the Keladra-Pipalda road around 9:30 p.m. While passing from the Sim Segva stream near Keladra, a blue tempo came towards us to knock the motorbike being ridden by our staffs Madubhai Rathwa and Bharsingbhai Rathwa. But, somehow, they managed to escape. The tempo then tried to hit the jeep in which I was sitting.

There were around 15 people carrying sticks and rods in the tempo. They stopped the vehicles and hit Madubhai Rathwa. Then they dragged the school students out of the other jeep and beat Fr. Damien Sladen, who was accompanying the children. Fr. Sladen was beaten till he fell unconscious.

The tempo was being driven by a person identified as Nangarsing Rathwa.

The miscreants also took away a laptop that was kept in the jeep besides vandalizing the vehicle.

Then the attackers came to the jeep in which Fr. Rodrigues, nun Sr. Manjula, and a few girl students were sitting.

The miscreants held Sr. Manjulas neck and hand and tried to pull her out. Then they grabbed her scarf and shawl, and pulled her sari (an Indian wrap-around dress for women). They tore her blouse and banged her against the jeep twice and threw her down. They also grabbed her purse and mobile phone, and broke her silver chain.

The attackers also pulled out four girls from the jeep, but Sr. Manjula managed to rescue them and herself, and ran away. In the meantime, even Fr. Rodrigues could escape driving the jeep away.

I went to the Kawant police station at 11:30 pm and informed the police, who came along with me to the place of the incident, where we found Fr. Damien injured and four girls, and also Sr. Manjula. All of them were crying, aid Fr. Rodrigues.

The victims were admitted to a hospital.

The police did register a complaint against the attackers, but with initial reluctance.

In the meanwhile, a Hindu extremist sage, Jagat Guru Acharya Narendra Maharaj, led the alleged reconversion of around 2,000 tribal (aboriginal) Christians in a function on December 17 in Gujarat states Tapi district.

According to The Indian Express Newspaper, the function took place at the Shivaji Grounds area.

The converts took an oath and admitted affidavits saying they would not convert to Christianity ever again in the future, said the newspaper.

Many of the tribal men also cut off their hair and took oaths, while all of them gave thumb impressions on the affidavits saying they have willingly returned to the folds of the Hindu religion, added the daily.

Posted by mrp 2007-12-24 11:31|| 2007-12-24 11:31|| Front Page Top

#10 John Dayal is an interesting fellow.

He opposes the uniform civil code mandated by the constitution of India.

Religious minorities, mainly Muslims and Christians, have separate "personal laws" pertaining to marriage, divorce and succession according to their respective religious tenets.

What this basically means is that Muslim women don't get alimony and can be triple talaqed.

I don't know any country (besides India) where Catholics don't have to follow the national laws regarding property inheritance, divorce etc.

I can't fathom why Dayal campaigns so hard against having one law to govern all citizens.

Dayal seems to make common cause with Islamists, enviro-nuts and leftists.
Not a good place to be if you want people to take you seriously.

Modi is also hated because of his support for the Narmada dam (which has allowed drinking water to flow to cities and towns all over Gujarat).

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 12:14|| 2007-12-24 12:14|| Front Page Top

#11 Thanks JF. Sometimes more is better.

Posted by Thomas Woof 2007-12-24 12:20|| http://www.cybernations.net/]">[http://www.cybernations.net/] 2007-12-24 12:20|| Front Page Top

#12 Then there is the peculiar opposition to Dayal (praising the Aztec culture and other weirdness)...

Don't know what to make of Dayal's opponents either...

Letter to Dr John Dayal

Member: National Integration Council, Government of India, in response to the letter he wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh

Dear John Dayal,

I am a westerner and a born Christian. I was mainly brought up in catholic schools, my uncle, Father Guy Gautier, a gem of a man, was the parish head of the beautiful Saint Jean de Montmartre church in Paris ; my father, Jacques Gautier, a famous artist in France, and a truly good person if there ever was one, was a fervent catholic all his life, went to church nearly every day and lived by his Christian values. There are certain concepts in Christianity I am proud of: charity for others, the equality of social systems in many western countries, Christs message of love and compassion

Yet, when I read your letter to the Prime Minister, Shri Manmohan Singh, à propos the inaugural meeting of the National Integration Council, I was a little uneasy. First, you seem to assume that you are speaking for the entire Christian community in India. But I know many Christians in this country, and they never voice the grievances you so loudly proclaim. In fact, I have found that most Christians in India are not only happy to live in this country of traditional tolerance, but that they are also different from many Christians in the world : more multicultural and ecumenist in spirit, maybe.

Then, you speak of the marginalized Dalits. I agree that there are still unforgivable atrocities committed against Dalits, although very often they are done by backward castes themselves. I remember during the Tsunami in Pondichery, how the Vanniars, an OBC caste, stopped the Dalit from a coastal hamlet, to cross their part of the village to bury their dead, as the Dalits cremation ground had been submerged. At the same time, my 30 years in India have taught me that nowhere in the world has there been so much effort to rectify a wrong, from 1947 onwards. This resulted in a Dalit, K.R. Narayanan, who just died, born in a poor village of Kerala, to become President of India, one of the highest posts in this nation. Has a black man ever been President of the US ? Reservations for Dalits, have made it possible for them to access education and jobs, regardless of their merits and this is a unique feature of India today.

You continue by saying that The agenda draftsmen of papers for NIC seem to believe that forcible and fraudulent conversions (to Christianity) are the main cause of civil unrest in tribal and other rural areas. And you retort that « this is a malicious myth propagated by obscurantist and fundamentalist - and often violent - political groups », meaning Hindu groups, of course.
I have to disagree with you on two points: One, I have seen with my own eyes how conversions in India are not only highly unethical, that is using unethical means of conversion, but also that they threaten a whole way of life, erasing centuries of tradition, customs, wisdom, teaching people to despise their own religion and look westwards to a culture which is alien to them, with disastrous results. Look what happened to countries like Hawaï, or to the extraordinary Aztec culture in South America, after Portuguese and Spanish missionaries took over ! Look how the biggest drug problems in India are found in the North East, or how Third World countries which have been totally Christianized, have lost all moorings and bearing and are drifting away without nationalism and self-pride.

Secondly, I think that people like you show very little gratefulness to that Hindu ethos, which has seeped into Indian Christian consciousness. It is because of that Hindu ethos, which accepts that God may manifest Himself at different times in different names, that Christians were welcomed in India in the first century indeed the Syrian Christians of Kerala constituted the first Christian community in the world. It is because of this inbred tolerance in Hinduism that Christianity and many other persecuted minorities in the world, flourished and practiced their religion in peace in India throughout the centuries. But how do Christians thank the Hindus ? When the Jesuits arrived in India with Vasco de Gama, they committed terrible persecutions, particularly in Goa, crucifying Brahmins, marrying forcibly local girls to Portuguese soldiers, razing temples to build churches and splitting the Kerala Christian community in two. And today, people like you continue ranting against Hindus and promoting unethical conversions, using the massive power of the dollars donated by ignorant Westerners, who do not know that their money is used to lure innocent tribals and Dalits, who still possess that all encompassing acceptance of all Gods. towards another religion.

Furthermore, you use false statistics, saying for instance that nuns have been raped. You no doubt allude to the Jabhua rape case, when courts have shown that these nuns were not raped by Hindus, but by Christians tribals. I know, I went there and interviewed these innocent souls. And who has been hijacking the educational system in India ? Not the Hindus, as you accuse, but the Christians, who control much of the higher education in India and by subtle and not so subtle means, poison the minds of the students, teaching them to look down on their own culture and look up to whatever is western - even if it has already failed in the West. In how many schools and hospitals in India today, the Bible is read at the beginning of each day, each session ? Would you approve of the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of 850 millions Hindus being read in Christian schools in the West to Christian students and nurses ?

Finally, when you say: God bless you, you Government, and God bless India », which God are you talking about ? Is it Jesus Christ ? But the message of Christ was one of Love, of respecting others cultures and creed - not of utilizing devious and unethical means for converting people. It is false to say that Jesus is the only true God. As Hindus rightly believe, the Divine has manifested Himself throughout the ages under different names and identities, whether it is Christ, Buddha, Krishna or Mohamed. Let this be the motto of the National Integration Council of India.

François Gautier

François Gautier is a French journalist and writer, who was for eight years the political correspondent in India and South Asia for " Le Figaro " and worked for Ouest-France, the largest circulation daily in France and LCI, France's 24 hour TV news channel.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 12:22|| 2007-12-24 12:22|| Front Page Top

#13 Dayal is probably reacting towards the criticism leveled at him by the Hindu right by associating with the Islamists, environmentalists, leftists and other anti-establishment figures.

Problem is we've seen where the "radical leftist priest in the rural area" leads.. and it is not pleasant.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 12:31|| 2007-12-24 12:31|| Front Page Top

#14 Furthermore, you use false statistics, saying for instance that nuns have been raped. You no doubt allude to the Jabhua rape case, when courts have shown that these nuns were not raped by Hindus, but by Christians tribals. I know, I went there and interviewed these innocent souls. And who has been hijacking the educational system in India ? Not the Hindus, as you accuse, but the Christians, who control much of the higher education in India and by subtle and not so subtle means, poison the minds of the students, teaching them to look down on their own culture and look up to whatever is western - even if it has already failed in the West. In how many schools and hospitals in India today, the Bible is read at the beginning of each day, each session ? Would you approve of the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of 850 millions Hindus being read in Christian schools in the West to Christian students and nurses ?

Well, well, well...

Posted by mrp 2007-12-24 12:37|| 2007-12-24 12:37|| Front Page Top

#15 They make quite the pair don't they?

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 12:42|| 2007-12-24 12:42|| Front Page Top

#16 This is the best part...

Look what happened to countries like Hawaï, or to the extraordinary Aztec culture in South America, after Portuguese and Spanish missionaries took over !

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 12:44|| 2007-12-24 12:44|| Front Page Top

#17 On the other side, Dayal blamed Hindu activists for a series of bombings against churches (actually done by the Pakistan-based Deendar Anjuman).
He seems in denial about the Islamists...

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 13:05|| 2007-12-24 13:05|| Front Page Top

#18 B Raman weighs in....

The pathological dislike -- even hatred -- that some of our journalists -- particularly in the electronic media -- have for Modi could be seen or sensed as one watched the television coverage of the counting of votes on December 23.

Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many television anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress was in for a drubbing.

The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A star lady anchor could not help remarking: 'Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries.' Some consolation!

Instead of spending their time searching for abusive expressions in the dictionary and in their copy-book of such expressions, if these self-styled secularists had only visited the Web sites, discussion groups and blogspots of members of the Hindu community not only in India, but also in other countries of the world -- particularly in the US -- they would have noticed something, which might have given them cause for introspection.

They would have noticed that Modi is becoming the icon of a growing number of Hindus not only in India, but also in the Hindu Diaspora spread across the world. The support for him is not confined only to the Gujarati-speaking Hindus of the world. It is spread right across the Hindu spectrum -- whatever be the language or ethnicity or place of origin of the Hindus concerned.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 14:56|| 2007-12-24 14:56|| Front Page Top

#19 What is it they see in him?

His simple and austere living of the kind associated with the late Kamaraj of Tamil Nadu, but not seen in the leaders of today?

His reputation as an incorruptible politician, the likes of which is not found anywhere in India, not even in his own party?

His style of development-oriented governance, which even his detractors do not hesitate to praise?

The fruits of his policy, which Gujarat and its people are already enjoying?

His tough stance on terrorism?

His lucid-thinking on matters concerning our national security?

His defiance in the face of the greatest campaign of demonisation mounted against him, the likes of which only Indira Gandhi had faced from her political opponents and sections of the media in the 1970s?

All these are factors, which influence their favourable perception of him, and which have already been highlighted and analysed in the articles on his impressive election victory.

But there is one factor, which is more important than these and which has not found mention in the analyses.

That is, for large sections of the Hindus -- young and old, even more among the young than among the old -- he gave them a sense of pride in their identity as Hindus.

They feel that he removed from their minds long habits of defensiveness as Hindus carefully nurtured by the self-styled secularists.

As if to proclaim one's Hindu identity and to assert one's rights as Hindus in their own homeland in which they are in a vast majority (80 per cent of the population) is to be communal, is to become an ugly Indian.
For these self-styled secularists, a pretty Indian is a Hindu, who is all the time on the defensive, fights shy of proclaiming his Hindu personality and asserting his rights as a member of the majority community.

These self-styled secularists would not address their sermons of secularism to the Islamic countries, where for a Muslim to convert a non-Muslim into Islam is an act blessed by Allah, but for a non-Muslim to convert a Muslim into his religion is a crime calling for the death penalty.

For them, secularism is a virtue which a Hindu should practise towards others, but not others towards him.

It is Modi's rejection of this hypocrisy of the self-styled secularists, which makes him stand apart as a Hindu leader with a difference in the eyes of his admirers.

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 14:57|| 2007-12-24 14:57|| Front Page Top

#20 The disappointment on the faces of some of the anchors was to be seen to be believed. A star lady anchor could not help remarking: 'Modi might be able to win the elections in Gujarat, but he still can't get a visa to go to the US and other Western countries.' Some consolation!

Finally, the US State Dept. and I agree on something.

Posted by mrp 2007-12-24 15:14|| 2007-12-24 15:14|| Front Page Top

#21 Thanks John. It's nice to get analysis not filtered and distorted by the Leftist groupthink of the media. India seems to have the same problem with media distortion and agenda peddling we do in the West.

Posted by phil_b 2007-12-24 15:40|| 2007-12-24 15:40|| Front Page Top

#22 Initially, as it appeared that the BJP might not do well in the final tally, there was excitement among many television anchors. They thought they had tasted blood. After an hour, the BJP candidates started racing ahead and it became clear the the Congress was in for a drubbing.

Just the same that for European anchors during the 2004 US election.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-12-24 15:50|| 2007-12-24 15:50|| Front Page Top

#23 I think Media all over the world attracts leftist liberal arts types with their agendas...

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 16:11|| 2007-12-24 16:11|| Front Page Top

#24 US State Department statement on Chief Minister Modi's visa status.

Posted by mrp 2007-12-24 16:19|| 2007-12-24 16:19|| Front Page Top

#25 But the paragons of religious freedom, the Saudis are free to come and go as they please

Posted by john frum 2007-12-24 16:33|| 2007-12-24 16:33|| Front Page Top

#26
#25 Word John.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2007-12-24 18:57|| 2007-12-24 18:57|| Front Page Top

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