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2007-08-27 Fifth Column
Robert Fisk: Even I Question The 'Truth' About 9/11
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Posted by Steve White 2007-08-27 00:09|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11139 views ]  Top

#1 Usually, I have tried to tell the "truth"; that while there are unanswered questions about 9/11, ...

What questions are those Bob? Any question about who did it? Any question as to why?

Here are questions about 9/11 I find worth asking to oneself.
Posted by anonymous5089 2007-08-27 02:29||   2007-08-27 02:29|| Front Page Top

#2 and in Yerevan

Hoo boy, RICH, totally rich.

I was in Yerevan just a few short weeks after the 9-11 atrocity.

NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON I ENCOUNTERED DURING MY TWO-WEEK STAY IN ARMENIA'S CAPITAL EVER QUESTIONED ME AS TO ANY FALSIFICATION OF MUSLIM INVOLVEMENT IN THE 9-11 ATROCITY.

In fact, I have had to spend time attempting to persuade my Central Asian and Middle Eastern Christian friends that they should not—contrary to everything they have told me—militate towards complete and total annihilation of all Muslims on earth.

Imagine my own humiliation in having to eventually admit that I was wrong in opposing their unanimous advocacy of wiping out all Muslims on earth.

I still cling to the hope that a Muslim genocide will not be necessary. Little evidence presents itself towards proving that such an event will not occur.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-08-27 02:34||   2007-08-27 02:34|| Front Page Top

#3 NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON I ENCOUNTERED DURING MY TWO-WEEK STAY IN ARMENIA'S CAPITAL EVER QUESTIONED ME AS TO ANY FALSIFICATION OF MUSLIM INVOLVEMENT IN THE 9-11 ATROCITY.

That was reported only by one newspaper (as noted by JF Revel in his book on anti-americanism), but there were lots and lots of grassroots reports of everyday Moderate Muslims noisily and publically manifesting their joy and contentment here in France right after 9/11; W from MIF reported how he personally saw a young muslim kids celebrating in the street. And there were similar reports out of the UK and Belgium IIRC, so it was not an isolated, fren ch phenomenon, not all.
So, from the very, very beginning, even in muslims living in the West's mind, there was NO doubt whatsoever than muslims did it. They took it as a great muslim achievement, with pride and celebration, and already saw the USA as an ennemy to be hurt and defeated, before the WOT that has supposely alienated them even started.

That's why muslim conspiracy theories are so funny, because they can both be proud of the "magnificent 19"'s achievement and victory against the Great Satan, and simultaneously pose as victims and claim they were framed by the jooooooooos/neocons and are the ones to be pitied here. That's what non cartesian, non western mindsets can do.

As for western conspiracy theorists, basically, they follow the old soviet propaganda warfare's strategic aim, demoralizing the West by claiming its real ennemies are its leader. I don't know if they're just willing participants doing that for fun and profit (think alex jones' DVDs) because they've been programmed that way, or if there is an hidden hand behind it; here in Rb, and elsewhere, there were exposes of the orgs behind the european 2003 "antiwar" demonstrations, and all over Europe, it was the usual suspects; commies may be dead in Europe from an electoral point of view, but their networks and levers in society are still intact, and they still hates and plot.
Posted by anonymous5089 2007-08-27 03:09||   2007-08-27 03:09|| Front Page Top

#4 I don't understand how this piece of s..t is still around generating CO2.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2007-08-27 06:35||   2007-08-27 06:35|| Front Page Top

#5 ...Because no one wants to do the paperwork associated with disposing of toxic waste?
Posted by Procopius2k 2007-08-27 07:10||   2007-08-27 07:10|| Front Page Top

#6 Wow. Even Fiskie questions the "truth".
Can ya beat that...
Posted by tu3031 2007-08-27 08:48||   2007-08-27 08:48|| Front Page Top

#7 Zenster: It is worth repeating that islam is not a race and consequently no genocide can be perpetuated against it. A public hygiene measure against a meme-plague is another matter.
Posted by Excalibur 2007-08-27 10:17||   2007-08-27 10:17|| Front Page Top

#8 Even I Question...

And I question whether there is a lower bound to the idiocy of these chumps. When Popular Mechanics brutally debunks your conspiracy theories, you know you suck. (no slur on PM. they did a most expert job)
Posted by SteveS 2007-08-27 10:22||   2007-08-27 10:22|| Front Page Top

#9 Proof that liberalism is a religion. You must believe it, never mind the proof.
Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader  2007-08-27 10:24||   2007-08-27 10:24|| Front Page Top

#10 I have a thought experiemtn for those who swallow the "jet fuel doesn't melt steel" story. I've not tested it, myself, but am pretty sure it'd work.

Get a piece of steel piano wire, and hold it comfortably in a pair of pliers ('cuz it's about to get hot). With your second hand, hold a cigarette lighter under the wire until it gets red hot. Does it melt? No. Bt I'll bet you a dollar it will bend under its own weight, right where you got it red hot.

Second thought experiment: Does charcoal melt steel? No? Not in your barbaque, anyway. But coal/coke/charcoal was used to make (molten) steel throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, and to make other metals (bronze, silver, gold, et al) for centuries prior to that.
Posted by Bobby 2007-08-27 10:42||   2007-08-27 10:42|| Front Page Top

#11 Victor Davis Hanson, after quoting Ben Laden and then Fisk, comments:

Two observations come to mind.

First, we know why there is now a colloquial verb in English "to fisk."

Second, The "Even I" of Fisk's title should read "Especially I."

These are sad times in the West, but the inevitable wages of a quarter-century of elite postmodern thought.
Posted by Sherry 2007-08-27 11:08||   2007-08-27 11:08|| Front Page Top

#12 "I still cling to the hope that a Muslim genocide will not be necessary."

Instead of talking about future potential genocides, why not talk about the three genocides against Muslims that have already occured (or are still occuring) in recent decades?

- Bosnian Muslims by the Serbs
- the Chechen genocide by the Russians
- the Darfur genocide by other Muslims.

And as for genocide against Christians... I guess we have to go all the way back to the Armenian genocide by the Turks? Anything more recent than 80 years ago?

Two of these were committed by Eastern Orthodox, so at this point I'm much more likely to consider a genocide of the Eastern Orthodox to be "necessary", than I am to consider a genocide of Muslims. Sorry, mom, sorry dad, you need to be genocided to ensure Orthodox fanaticism won't cause murder and mayhem in the Balkans or Caucasus anymore; the hundreds thousands of deaths that it caused against a different religion -- dozens times more deaths than Muslims have caused against Christians through all their suicide bombings and hijackings put together.

Since muslim crimes and murders primarily occur against fellow muslims (i.e. Darfur) I wonder what the "necessity" you speak of is actually about. Is this a "We must kill them all quickly, or they will kill themselves and deprive us of the pleasure?"

Or if Muslim-on-Muslim crimes are also to be counted as part of the supposedly unique barbarism of Islam, why not also count the Christian-on-Christian killings in Rwanda? Very few muslims in Rwanda I believe, didn't stop them from butchering each other though.

Given all the above pesky little facts, I doubt that the "necessity" you speak of represents anything by a desire fed by an extremely selective view of world affairs.

PS -- Armenia was supported by Iran in her was against the muslims of Azerbaijan. So when Armenian fanatics speak about their desire to kill muslims it's not the actual Islamofascist regimes that support terrorism they have in mind -- they are the *allies* of those regimes.

The ones they have in mind are the secular pro-West muslims of Azerbaijan.
Posted by Aris Katsaris 2007-08-27 12:09||   2007-08-27 12:09|| Front Page Top

#13 "but there were lots and lots of grassroots reports of everyday Moderate Muslims noisily and publically manifesting their joy and contentment here in France right after 9/11;"

Lots of manifestations of joy from anti-American Christians here in Greece as well, I suggest you genocide us.
Posted by Aris Katsaris 2007-08-27 12:11||   2007-08-27 12:11|| Front Page Top

#14 Ah, the return of the Greek bureau-fascist!

It must be Fall, with its bright promise of a EU-boot smashing into human faces forever.
Posted by Kofi Angesing9353 2007-08-27 12:14||   2007-08-27 12:14|| Front Page Top

#15 Hey, Aris. Aren't you supposed to be fighting those fires you set?
Posted by Jack is Back!">Jack is Back!  2007-08-27 12:30||   2007-08-27 12:30|| Front Page Top

#16 Poor Fiskie - gotta live up to his name which will long be synonymous writing so incoherent that there really isn't one point that can debated by rational minded folks. As a result, it's not possible to debate the argument at hand, but rather you have to disect his random, unrelated thoughts, line by line.

And of course the incoherent thinking that the story behind your graphic photo tells so well.

Seriously, I think the way Fisk writes is that he gets drunk and then comes up with an outrageous title. Then he writes an intro, randomly hits a bunch of his talking points macro keys and then writes a conclusion which he claims makes his point.

He must work hard to be so stupid.
Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-08-27 12:36||   2007-08-27 12:36|| Front Page Top

#17  I have a thought experiemtn for those who swallow the "jet fuel doesn't melt steel" story. I've not tested it, myself, but am pretty sure it'd work.


Also there was aluminum fire from the planes. Aluminum fires get much hotter than fuel ones and they decompose water so shedding water (like from the automatic sprinklers in the twowers) over them actually increases the fire (and in addition you get hydrogen fire)

Posted by JFM">JFM  2007-08-27 12:39||   2007-08-27 12:39|| Front Page Top

#18 Mr Katsaris has conveniently forgotten the genocide against Chritisn Timorese, the failed one against Jews, the silent genocide against pakistanese Hindus, the genocide in South Sudan (Muslim vesrsus Christain).

That is just from the top my head.

Also his mom would be highly displeased iif she heard he has forgotten about the genocide against the Pontus Greeks (around 1995).
Posted by JFM">JFM  2007-08-27 12:48||   2007-08-27 12:48|| Front Page Top

#19 "I suggest you genocide us."

Nope, the Islamists have called dibs already.


Posted by E. Brown 2007-08-27 12:50|| saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]">[saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]  2007-08-27 12:50|| Front Page Top

#20 Proof that liberalism is a religion.

Also a mental disorder.
Posted by JohnQC 2007-08-27 13:10||   2007-08-27 13:10|| Front Page Top

#21 I have a thought experiemtn...

Not to rain on your experiment, 'cause I love sciece, but you are assuming as given what you are trying to prove. Usually a thought experiment is to show a consequence or contradiction in what we know.

Luckily, in this case, we have actual numeric data: steel loses strength as it is heated and rapidly becomes quite weak long before it reaches its melting point. Blacksmiths have known this for a long time. Metallurgists have published numbers and curves. Yeah, I'm too lazy to look one up. Besides, Popular Mechanics and others have been over this before.
Posted by SteveS 2007-08-27 13:11||   2007-08-27 13:11|| Front Page Top

#22 "Genocide" has become another buzzword, like calling any opinion you dislike "fascist" or "racist." When I read or hear "genocide," I can smell something, and it ain't coffee brewing. "Mass murder" is more accurate, and needs to be distinguished from lawful killing. I kind of admire the old Texas proverb, "Some people need killing."
"Anything more recent than 80 years ago?" Who have you killed for us lately, Aris? Your extremely selective view of world affairs is just another one of many.
Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-08-27 13:19||   2007-08-27 13:19|| Front Page Top

#23 How do we know Afghans beat Fiskie's ass? How do we know he didn't beat his own ass with an empty bottle of Hennesey's or something for an easy story? How do we know some Afghan dominatrix didn't put the hurt on him? How do we know that Cheney didn't fly in, personally beat his ass, and then get whisked out to that secure location they were always talking about?
How do we know, Fiskie? How do we know?
Posted by tu3031 2007-08-27 13:21||   2007-08-27 13:21|| Front Page Top

#24 Also there was aluminum fire from the planes. Aluminum fires get much hotter than fuel ones and they decompose water so shedding water (like from the automatic sprinklers in the towers) over them actually increases the fire (and in addition you get hydrogen fire)

Jeebus! Having lit off substantial amounts of aluminum powder in my lifetime, I don't know why that fact didn't occur to me. Great insight, JFM.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-08-27 13:24||   2007-08-27 13:24|| Front Page Top

#25 "Genocide" has become another buzzword, like calling any opinion you dislike "fascist" or "racist."

For example: The deaths of "dozens" (no one really knows) of Mexican students in the late '60s/early '70s was ruled genocide.

Although the article doesn't say so, the classification of the murder of an unknown (but comparitively small) number of people of unknown ethnic background as "genocide" was due to the fact that murder has a statute of limitations in Mexico, whereas genocide does not.

Of course, that only applies to genocide committed after 2002, but the Mexican government is determined to prosecute Echeverría, law or no law.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2007-08-27 13:46||   2007-08-27 13:46|| Front Page Top

#26 Why is this idiot still getting paid to write this drivel?
Posted by mojo">mojo  2007-08-27 14:43||   2007-08-27 14:43|| Front Page Top

#27 #25 "Genocide" has become another buzzword, like calling any opinion you dislike "fascist" or "racist."

For example: The deaths of "dozens" (no one really knows) of Mexican students in the late '60s/early '70s was ruled genocide.

Ms Schultz, this remind me of that vintage article one can find at the website linked in my previous comment above :

The Black Panthers and the Police:
A Pattern of Genocide?

Very interesting debunking of a "genocide" claim made by the BP taken ad verbatim and given credence by the press of the time, long but well worth the read.
Posted by anonymous5089 2007-08-27 14:52||   2007-08-27 14:52|| Front Page Top

#28 tu3031 - re: How do we know, Fiskie? How do we know?

tufunny! lol!
Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-08-27 17:03||   2007-08-27 17:03|| Front Page Top

#29 Proof that liberalism is a religion. You must believe it, never mind the proof

Exactly, Darth!
Posted by mcsegeek1 2007-08-27 18:34||   2007-08-27 18:34|| Front Page Top

#30 Less so the report that the body of a female air crew member was found in a Manhattan street with her hands bound.

I'm not sure that even PM stooped to disprove this "theory", but didn't we hear from other flight attendants (maybe on Flight 93) that they (the Islamonazis) had tied up (and actually slit the throat of one of them) the flight attendants? So, why not the same treatment for the WTC planes? Jeebus, is this guy really that dense (don't answer that one)?
Posted by BA 2007-08-27 22:26||   2007-08-27 22:26|| Front Page Top

#31 Aris, I would think that by recent definitions of Genocide the treatement of Christians on many Islands in Indonesia would qualify.

Fisk is a liberal, to come to a conclusion he uses emotion and not reason.
Posted by rjschwarz 2007-08-27 23:21||   2007-08-27 23:21|| Front Page Top

23:59 Zenster
23:53 Zenster
23:50 Zenster
23:43 Vancouver
23:42 Zenster
23:41 Richard Aubrey
23:21 rjschwarz
23:09 newc
22:58 Zenster
22:48 BA
22:45 ed
22:42 Brett
22:39 BA
22:36 BA
22:35 JosephMendiola
22:31 JosephMendiola
22:29 Barbara Skolaut
22:28 Harry R. & Nancy P.
22:26 BA
22:20 Zenster
22:18 McZoid
22:17 Bright Pebbles
22:16 Harry R. & Nancy P.
22:14 McZoid
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