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2006-07-22 Europe

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Posted by JFM 2006-07-22 02:13|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 They're gonna hate us even more tomorrow, when Floyd Landis becomes the third American to wear yellow in Paris. I'm gonna watch every millisecond of the podium presentation. Vive la France!

Posted by Raj 2006-07-22 10:03|| 2006-07-22 10:03|| Front Page Top

#2 Nice history lesson, but France is gone and is not coming back. Reminds me of what Iggy Pop (of all people) said about the descendants of the Mayans -- beggars picking through the ruins of a once-great civilization and having no clue as to how that civilization was created nor idea of how to bring it back.

Posted by regular joe 2006-07-22 10:20|| 2006-07-22 10:20|| Front Page Top

#3 Thanks, JFM. Very illuminating.

I propose a new category for RB: the Rantburg Univ. Core Curriculum. And this article should be in it.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-07-22 10:27|| 2006-07-22 10:27|| Front Page Top

#4 Viva le JFM!

Posted by Inspector Clueso 2006-07-22 11:20|| 2006-07-22 11:20|| Front Page Top

#5 Vive Le Floyd!

Posted by Parabellum 2006-07-22 11:22|| 2006-07-22 11:22|| Front Page Top

#6 The consistent theme is that power flows top down in France and bottom up in the US. It seems to me the French have tried everything but changing the direction of power flows to compete with us.

While I am a France basher to match anyone I cannot read this and feel anything but sad.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-22 11:37|| 2006-07-22 11:37|| Front Page Top

#7 According to the late Philippe Roger, it started around 1750, before we were Americans.

Remember, Jefferson sent a moose over to counteract the image everything on the continent was pigmy sized.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-07-22 12:42|| 2006-07-22 12:42|| Front Page Top

#8 There are richs and poor in America but no nobility, no people who take off their hat in front of Bill Gates.

I have a book published in 1887: Aristocracy in England by Adam Badeau, an American diplomat. He said that he explained this to his upperclass English friends. They said, "What? Do you mean that the great merchants' daughters don't look down on the little grocers' daughters?" He replied, "They may well look down on the little grocers' daughters. But the little grocers' daughters do not look up." His audience marvelled at the idea of a society where no one looked up.

Napoleon III needed to shfit Francer's pro-Union public opinion before acting in supoort of the Confederation.

Henry Adams (another American diplomat of the 19th c.) wrote that Abraham Lincoln was hated in Europe. Remember that when you hear how Reagan or Bush -- or any American president -- is despised in Europe. Or loved, for that matter.

In high school the official history text books will tell her that D-DAY was about ensuring America's commercial supremacy.

I have heard this from Europeans before, but I thought it was some fringe theory. I didn't know it was taught in schools. It must be taught alongside the view that the poor Japanese had no choice but to attack Pearl Harbor because of our oil and steel embargo (which, of course, had nothing to do with Japanese actions in Manchuria, but was all due to fear for our commercial dominance).

Posted by Angie Schultz 2006-07-22 13:29|| 2006-07-22 13:29|| Front Page Top

#9 That's funny since Thomas Jefferson was 6 ft 2½ in (1.89 m) when Europeans averaged 5 ft 6 in.

Posted by ed 2006-07-22 13:34|| 2006-07-22 13:34|| Front Page Top

#10 This was covered in John Adams' bio. Also to prove Tom's point, he was at a dinner and had all men stand up at the dinner table and we were the tallest.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-07-22 14:02|| 2006-07-22 14:02|| Front Page Top

#11 If you can track it down, Henry Steele Commager's The Empire of Reason: How Europe Imagined and America Realized the Enlightenment is an excellent overview of this issue

Posted by Ernest Brown 2006-07-22 14:48|| saturninretrograde.blogspot.com]">[saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2006-07-22 14:48|| Front Page Top

#12 Here it is.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2006-07-22 15:17|| 2006-07-22 15:17|| Front Page Top

#13 Great job, JFM. I nominate this for the classics.

The other false premise of the "Soviets did all of the heavy lifting in WWII" argument is usually presented as, "Well the Soviets lost 20M men and the US only lost 450K." Of course the US had decent air support, radios, trained officers and NCOs, strategic air interdiction, and the best damned artillery the world had ever seen. The Russians had lots of illiterate peasants led by poorly trained officers, no coordination of manuever arms and artillery (hard to do without radios), penal battalions, poor air support, artillery that was only capable of laying down creeping barrages, etc.

The US substituted steel for men. It's that simple.

Posted by 11A5S 2006-07-22 15:31|| 2006-07-22 15:31|| Front Page Top

#14 Also not to mention that a lot of what mechanization the Soviets had, came from the US. Trucks in particular.

Posted by Phil 2006-07-22 15:48|| 2006-07-22 15:48|| Front Page Top

#15 France may be doomed. Time will tell.

Posted by Elmaiper Omoque1468 2006-07-22 16:01|| 2006-07-22 16:01|| Front Page Top

#16 The continent is all but finished. (This gives me no joy.) Demographics are destiny. Europe isn't having children, doesn't cherish its past and current civilization, and has lost all but a whisper of its spiritual life.

When I point this out to Euros or to American leftists (for whom Europe is a utopia they wish to emulate down to the last detail) they always respond along the lines of, "Well, Europe will just find a way."

Pressed for the mechanism by which Europe will reverse its demographic suicide, not one person who defends this notion of some miraculous means of Europe continuing to populate itself has ever given me a single coherent response.

What nonsense! This boilerplate given by the left that the Euros will "just find a way" represents a wish, not intelligent discourse, and a desperate wish at that.

In order, the likely outcomes for France and the continent:

1. Northern Caliphate of a Muslim Empire.

2. New holocaust of Muslims and descent into barbarous autocracy.

3. Mass peaceful deportation of Muslims followed by extreme xenophobia, and subsequent descent of Euroland into a depopulated cipher vulnerable to being attacked militarily from without.

The problem with all of these scenarios is the nukes that France possesses. What will happen to them?

It may be that in the end the U.S., in an ultimate act of irony, will find itself needing to colonize Europe to re-Westernize it. There are precedents - the Byzantine Empire eventually sending its knowledge back west, the re-Christianization of Britain by the Irish, etc.

Posted by no mo uro 2006-07-22 16:23|| 2006-07-22 16:23|| Front Page Top

#17 Very sharp, as always, JFM (sucking noises).

Only thing I could add with my own limited insight is how I'm always perplexed by the omnipresence of antiamericanism... a bit in conversation (but people mostly follow what's told in the msm or by their political family - almost all french political denominations are antiamerican, one more harmful french unanimities), but mostly in the media.
I mean, I read the "télé7jours" teevee program, and while reading reviews, I see that the murder of JFK is casually attributed to the Cia by the anonymous writer on a documentary on arte; I read the local newspaper, and there is a review of a comics graphic novel, and it is how the American Dream is dead, and probably never was,... I mean, this is an obession.

Not only there is a real "party line" followed by the msm (today, I saw the news channel lci "geopolitical expert" explain that basically the US diplomats were standing up waiting for orders from the "israeli centurions" waiting to destroy lebanon, that the USA were warmongers, neoconservatives were back on their megalomaniacal dreams,... = the quai d'orsay line), but this antiamerican obsession is self sustaining (isn't that the definition of a meme?)... every little cog in the media machinery does his part. Little strokes, little bits, repeated infinitely, you can't avoid it.

You are at the center of those people, you consume them, they spent all their time defining themselves against you; french bashing seems to be a big part of the anglosaxon collective mind, but it is only a very secondary topic : how many time do you think about France daily? How many teevee mag writer feel obliged to pontifcate about France while reviewing a show? Is GWB obsessed with the "french ennemy"?
Definitively not healthy nation-wise.

Scapegoating, and imaginary ennemies are not good signs of a country's moral state, as is the fact that our collective optimism supposedly depends on our "national" football team success or lack of thereof (analysts said that a world cup would have "jumpstarted us" into getting back on track... like a third world country).

By the way, I'm not a blind americanophile intoxicated by my vision of the USA, but this is sickening. I can make my own mind about you, but there's an imaginary America that is been forcefed to people; once you realize that, once you realize the media machine is bent on shaping your opinion rather than informing/entertaining you, it can't escape you.

And on the other hand... what, 70%?, 80%?, 90%?, of all our tv shows, theater movies, pop songs,... are american. No kidding, name a show from the 70's onward, it's been followed by the french public... and with cable, in english (much better!).
France hasn't produced anything of any cultural value since a loooong time, except harmful postmodernist ideologies, we're being literally colonized culturally by your own culture (something I like much/resent), all this while our Enlightened Elites dub you as a Nation without culture!
Isn't that sad, and very funny!?

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-22 16:34|| 2006-07-22 16:34|| Front Page Top

#18 no mo uro : yes.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-22 16:35|| 2006-07-22 16:35|| Front Page Top

#19 JFM - thank you for taking the time to write this. It was clear, concise and informative.

Posted by ryuge 2006-07-22 17:17|| 2006-07-22 17:17|| Front Page Top

#20 Wow. An excellent thread - Thanks, JFM, for kicking it off in style.

I'm very impressed with the the initial post and the comments. Thank you very much for what's been contributed thus far.

It seems to me, from what I've read here, in Revel's "Anti-Americanism", and many other sources, that so much of the current situation in Europe, and France in particular, is based upon "anti" attitudes - a very heavily reactionary attitude. If this is an accurate interpretation, it begs the question: Can a reactionary ideology (or whatever name is better suited to describe it) ever succeed and prosper, not just survive until it collapses from the vacuum within?

Of course, since I'm an unvarnished Jacksonian, I think the core issue of the health of a society must revolve around how much individualism is valued and not just tolerated, but encouraged and rewarded. If the individual is not valued above the state, which I see to be purely derivative, then it loses the boundless creativity, and support, of its citizens. When this occurs, then it is doomed to stagnation, which makes it vulnerable to almost any "system" which has sufficient inertia - not that the invading ideology will necessarily be any better or more prone to survive over the long term.

I believe another key is whether the society's emphasis is on a punishment model (negative) or a reward model (positive). In Napoleonic Law, it definitely seems to be a punishment model - with some social class exceptions tossed in for fun - much like the primary constitutional difference between us. We specify the rights of the state, all else being reserved to the individual -- and the opposite is true of Napoleonic Law, at least as I understand it.

So, summarizing, I believe strongly promoting individualism and the reward model are the core strengths of America. If either is removed, we would have similar systemic ills.

Please correct me where I've misstated or missed important salient points.

I echo the feelings of many here - this is extremely sad.

Posted by cruiser 2006-07-22 17:39|| 2006-07-22 17:39|| Front Page Top

#21 They hate us because we use deoderant and encourage our women to shave their legs. There is even a saying -- when everyone stinks no one notices. Well, we refused to stink.

Suck it, France.

Posted by Iblis">Iblis 2006-07-22 18:29|| 2006-07-22 18:29|| Front Page Top

#22 Pleaaaaase you won't see a woman in France with unshaved legs.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-22 18:51|| 2006-07-22 18:51|| Front Page Top

#23 Iblis, that was totally uncalled for. If you don't have anything but insults to contribute, why contribute?

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2006-07-22 18:51|| 2006-07-22 18:51|| Front Page Top

#24 However I will complete the observations of anonymous5089 by telling that he is reporting about the stae in the media. When you begin to talk to people it is far easier to find people who like Americans than what you could think through the MSM. But their voices aren't being heard and I fear their children are as brainwashed as the childrens of leftists.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-22 18:56|| 2006-07-22 18:56|| Front Page Top

#25 Anonymous5089 says

France hasn't produced anything of any cultural value since a loooong time,

THe last real master piece in French litterature was Proust's "La recherche du temps perdu" and that was in 192x. Nothing after it, has reached its ankle. BTW, Only 1 French in hundred has read La Recherche. I read it twice. :-)

But worse than lack of quelity is the fact that French culture has produced nothing who gained universal acceptance and this hurts French pride. The British produced the Beatles, the Stones, James Bond, the Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter. The french nothing read, wtched, listened except bertween a reduced circle of intellectuals.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-22 19:07|| 2006-07-22 19:07|| Front Page Top

#26 I never have been a fan of France (I blame all those horrible French language teachers I had....the only one who was any good was from Provence, the rest were those annoying Americans who think they are more French than the French....), but this is truly sad.

There were so many scientific and cultural innovations by the French in the past. Watch the History Channel and Nova when they do shows about something that happened up until World War 1. And now? Hell if I can think of any. I'm sure that their ghosts weep when they see what has become of la belle Republique.

Thanks for the article, JFM. I hope France can turn it around and once again become a great nation.

Posted by Swamp Blondie 2006-07-22 19:18|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2006-07-22 19:18|| Front Page Top

#27 The real tragedy is that there are, and have recently been, men in France who were strong and doughty warriors. Massu, Bigeard, Challe and Aussaresses won the Algerian War militarily only to have DeGaulle politically cast their success away. The West has been paying for that, and for Eden's failure of nerve at Suez, ever since. Now the brave men defending France know they not only have to keep watch on France's external enemies, they have to constantly keep looking behind them to see that they don't get knifed in the back by another cowardly government. I suspect they feel it's like trying to build a concrete wall on a foundation of pudding.

I think that if there is going to be any hope of France regenerating itself it will take a military coup and a complete cleansing of the Augean stables that constitute French politics. The system appears broken beyond any other means of repair.

Posted by mac 2006-07-22 19:19|| 2006-07-22 19:19|| Front Page Top

#28 As sources I have used Revel's book but also an "Histoire de l'antiamericanisme" (don't remeber tyhe author).

While I knew about teh story of Jefferson being told that Americans were short havibng all peole raise and... the tallest French was hsorter than the shortest American I don't consider this as real anti-americanism but simply as harmmless stupidity. Real anti-americanism: americans are greedy only interested in money, no culture (they had twice the litteracy rates than we had in France b ut that doesn't matter) begins with Napoloeon III. Also notice that propaganda was aimed at incite hate not merealy against the US government but Americans themselves.

Small note: the building of the Liberty statue was in fact a last try from the pro-American Frenchs for ditching the growing wave of antiamericanism. Unfortunately the bickering of the Congress about financing the pedestal caused an increase of Anti-americanism instead.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2006-07-22 19:22|| 2006-07-22 19:22|| Front Page Top

#29 JFM, is it really hatred? Anti-American hatred, the flag-burning kind, is something that one can expect to see coming out of the likes of Iran, Pakistan, etc. Are we talking about the same thing in France? There are a lot of people who say that they are better than Americans at pretty much everything, but they don't necessarily hate them.

Posted by Critle Flosing8268 2006-07-22 19:42|| 2006-07-22 19:42|| Front Page Top

#30 I'm sure the "cultured" Greeks were really PO'd by the ascendancy of the Romans too.

Posted by Slavising Sholuting4450 2006-07-22 20:51|| 2006-07-22 20:51|| Front Page Top

#31 There is a saying "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it". Or something like that. It might be said that "But those who do not learn history won't be encumbered by it." Or something like that. There are so many examples of why carrying around all that baggage only causes problems. Islamic culture, for example, seems to remember every slight to them ever. My wife remembers every argument we've ever had or perceived slight. Usually taken out of context, too! :-) If I find myself in a burning building, I just want to get the hell out, I don't care to remember exactly how I got where I am and to backtrack every step of the way and carefully exit the door I came in. Maybe that's why Americans don't seem to have a "culture", because history isn't really taught that well in the US. It is offered, and there are those who excel at it, but it isn't stressed as much as many Europeans I know. Too much fodder for those who would want to use it to create nationalism, etc, too. I had a history teacher who started off the course with a reminder that history is written mostly by people who weren't defeated, and not to take it too seriously. I guess it might also be said that history can also written down by people isolated from the victorious.

And remember, everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time, even if they don't want others to think so. Including the guy who wins that bicycle race with the yellow shirt. :-)

Nobody should strive for world domination any more. Things aren't that simple. We should just strive to work together to keep the evil of the day in check until it burns itself out.

Don't worry if capitalism or socialism or whatever is best. The system that works best will prevail all by its darling self. Do worry if dictators are trying to take over the world by touting one system over another. Personally, I think we still haven't settled on the perfect system. It's really not a competition unless you get an evil dictator.

Honest mistakes are OK. Even by a government. Don't beat yourself up too bad, just recognize them, learn from them, and try to fix them. Time to overhaul history lessons in much of Europe if all this is as true as it might seem. I would start things out something like "You've been misled, Americans have been trying to improve your quality of life just like they're saying after all!" :-)

When things get too complicated, you're doing something wrong. We should definitely get rid of the UN as it is today. Complicated diplomacy and politics should be outlawed and punishable by death.

Posted by gorb 2006-07-22 23:37|| 2006-07-22 23:37|| Front Page Top

#32 My people left France in 1066 and have been back to visit only occasionally.

Posted by RWV 2006-07-22 23:52|| 2006-07-22 23:52|| Front Page Top

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