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2006-06-20 Home Front: Culture Wars
New US church leader says homosexuality no sin
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Posted by Fred 2006-06-20 00:00|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 There are many Episcopal churches in this country (particularly in the South) that are withholding their financial support from the national church hiearchy because of nonsense like this. It is bad enough that the Catholic church is struggling to purge the pederasts from the priesthood without the Episcopal clergy encouraging it.
Posted by RWV 2006-06-20 00:34||   2006-06-20 00:34|| Front Page Top

#2 This strikes me as queer
Posted by Captain America 2006-06-20 00:36||   2006-06-20 00:36|| Front Page Top

#3 Gives a whole new meaning to love they brother.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 00:41||   2006-06-20 00:41|| Front Page Top

#4 show NV cowboys 'Brokeback Mtn' and ask for their response. Won't be the same as West Hollywood, Palm Springs, Key West, or Manhattan. I'd advise insurance update first.... She's outta touch with her home base, much less the US
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-06-20 00:44||   2006-06-20 00:44|| Front Page Top

#5 Likely there'll be a lot more U.S. Episcopal churches becoming 'missions' of the African Anglican dioceses.
Posted by Pappy 2006-06-20 01:39||   2006-06-20 01:39|| Front Page Top

#6 U.S. Episcopal Church Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori

Rumor has it she's an imposter: she doesn't move diagonally.
Posted by badanov 2006-06-20 05:01|| http://www.freefirezone.org]">[http://www.freefirezone.org]  2006-06-20 05:01|| Front Page Top

#7 Dual last names = sure sign of a liberal mindset.
Posted by Raj 2006-06-20 07:29||   2006-06-20 07:29|| Front Page Top

#8 Bad - well she sure as shit don't be a-goin straight...
Posted by Omains Ulavilet3145 2006-06-20 08:16||   2006-06-20 08:16|| Front Page Top

#9 Apparently she has not read Leviticus 18:20.
Posted by GORT 2006-06-20 08:26||   2006-06-20 08:26|| Front Page Top

#10 Regardless of where one stand on the issue of homosexualtiy, this is sure to split the Episcopal church right into 2 parts.

First, its theologically extremely unsound.

Foremost for her and anyone else that believes homosexual acts and Christianity to be compatible are several passages in the Bible that cannot be explained away without massive contortions:

First, there is adultery. Adultery in the natural sense is sexual intercourse of a married person with someone other than his or her own spouse. It is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments (Exodus 20:14; I Cor. 6:9, 10). Christ forbids dwelling upon the thoughts, the free play of one's imagination that leads to adultery (Matthew 5:28).
There is also fornication, the illicit sex acts of unmarried persons which is likewise forbidden (I Corinthians 5:1; 6:13, 18; Ephesians 5:3). Since marriage is between a man and a woman (as repeatedly specified in the Bible), it is impossible for homosexual acts to be licit - they are by definition disorderd - and an act of fornication (sex outside of marriage).

There is also specific condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible: The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9; 10). Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. And then he adds the comment that some of the Christians at Corinth had been delivered from these very practices: "And such were some of you: But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11).

Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). *All* of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God, but just as there was hope in Christ for the Corinthians, so is there hope for all of us.

Furthermore, in the old testament, "sodomy" is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known. From the verses in question:

"But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house around, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may *know* them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. (Genesis 19:4-8)

The Hebrew word for "know" in verse 5 is ya`da`, a sexual term. It is used frequently to denote sexual intercourse (Genesis 4:1, 17, 25; Matthew 1:24, 25). The message in the context of Genesis 19 is clear. Lot pled with the men to "do not so wickedly." Thus the biblical view is that homosexuality is wickedness and must be recognized as such. If it is not, then there is no hope for the homosexual - for to be forgiven sins, one must first repent of the sins.

In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion, and a bar to the Kingdom of God. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

Which is why I am so mystified as to how they can slice and dice the Bible and still try to call themselves Christian. At least have the courage to say that you are no longer Christians, you are some melange of modernism, social liberalism and a bit of humanistic niceness that you've cherrypicked formthe Christian bible.

Secondly, its mainly a political statement that counters the long established theology of the church. There is no denying that fact. The positionthat Homosexuality is "OK" is nothing but a political ploy.

And third, this person that is in charge apparently is more concnerned with political correctness than saving souls. They should jsut as well just rip her part of the Episcopal Church out and make it Universalist Unitarians for all the lack of firmness of doctrine and belief they have - they who are critical of nothing will fall for anything.

Note that I am writing from a Catholic viewpoint - and a fairly orthodox one. Homosexuals are not condemned any more than any other kind of sinner. They are held to the same standards. If they wish to be Christian, they need to repent of thier sins (homosexual acts), not do them again, and live a properly chaste life, as do all Christians per the biblical passages above.

The bottom line is soemthing the left and liberals have endless problems with:

Life isnt fair - and some people have more burden than others. Thats why we have our faith and our God to turn to for salvation and strength. Help those with a burden, but do not become an enabler for their sins. The EPiscopal Church is shunning its duty to help sinners save themselves - and in doing so it will eventually become anathema itself.

If you beleive otherwise that what is in the Bible and God's word, then please do not call yourselves "Christian".

The African communion is going to go bonkers over this, as are the southern and conservative US parts of the Episcopal Communion.
Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 08:53||   2006-06-20 08:53|| Front Page Top

#11 Begging the pardon of Episcopalians everywhere, this woman is a fraud.
I can assure you, homosexuality is a sin, period.
Posted by wxjames 2006-06-20 10:11||   2006-06-20 10:11|| Front Page Top

#12 Note that I am writing from a Catholic viewpoint - and a fairly orthodox one.

I'd say you're writing from a Christian viewpoint. As a Protestant, I find nothing to quarrel with in what you have to say.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-06-20 10:29||   2006-06-20 10:29|| Front Page Top

#13 Excellent, OS!
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2006-06-20 12:18||   2006-06-20 12:18|| Front Page Top

#14 You are on point OS.

One other thought. Biblically, "the wages of sin is death". Presbyterian Church is now under the auspices of liberals/humanists. Their proclamations that sin is right is their means of killing an American main stream "formerly Christian" denomination.

That all along has been a plan of humanists beginning in the 1930’s to take over a Christian nation's government, then its public schools, it's centers of higher education (many of which were founded over a hundred and fifty years ago as Christian centers of higher education), and then the main stream churches of America.

Then humanism is attained, Christianity destroyed, and a nation loses the greatest blessings never seen before in human history bestowed on a nation by God.

Humanism/liberalism mission accomplished....
Posted by Gromosh Elminegum5705 2006-06-20 12:35||   2006-06-20 12:35|| Front Page Top

#15 The United States of America is not a Christian nation. We are a secular nation, the vast majority of whose citizens are, and have always been, Christian. Currently that vast majority is somewhere between 75% and 80%, depending on who is doing the counting. Somewhere around 11% of us are currently atheist, between 1% and 2% are Jewish, and I've no idea about the rest.

A good many of the Founding Fathers were Deists, believers in a vague "God of Nature", the great clockbuilder who established and wound up the mechanical universe, then walked away; quite a few others, like Benjamin Franklin, were polite atheists, and both groups were well able to defend their interests against the various flavours of Christianity favoured by the rest. Hence the Establishment clause, which freed us to follow our individual consciences and understandings to the religion of our personal choices, so long as we act as good citizens in our interactions with others. This has been a very good thing for our country, sparing us the relgious wars of the Old World, and the false dichotomy of Establishment Christianity vs. atheism.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 13:02||   2006-06-20 13:02|| Front Page Top

#16 TW: A calming effect came over me as I read your post. hehehe.. Good stuff!
Posted by Besoeker 2006-06-20 13:06||   2006-06-20 13:06|| Front Page Top

#17 The Presby church will be joining them, they're voting on whether gays should or should not be in the pulpit.

What I want to know is why are they willing to tear us apart since at some point in the (somewhat) near future all homosexuality is going to be is an option on a designer baby checklist.

Posted by anonymous2u 2006-06-20 14:16||   2006-06-20 14:16|| Front Page Top

#18 TW: Yes, good post and clearly stated. I note that Franklin advocated chastity nonetheless, and clearly believed in an absolute moral order which informed religion (not the other way around).
Posted by KBK 2006-06-20 14:32||   2006-06-20 14:32|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm not so certain Franklin was a true atheist. He did say , "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy". as far as chastity, Ole Ben had syphilus contracted most probably while Ambassador to France. At least, that's what's written in a couple of biographies of him.
I was asked, once, bya Muslim co-worker how I felt about Jihad. I told him I do not and never have believed God wants any of us to kill others because of "sins". God will have his own justice and revenge.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2006-06-20 15:03||   2006-06-20 15:03|| Front Page Top

#20 Church of the Brokeback Mountain?
Posted by Captain America 2006-06-20 15:13||   2006-06-20 15:13|| Front Page Top

#21 Decisions like this flow from a clergy that feels morally and intellectualy superior to the laity. Twits. Also, although it may just be increased media attention, a lot of the clergy appear to be a little queer as well.
Posted by RWV 2006-06-20 16:32||   2006-06-20 16:32|| Front Page Top

#22 Franklin was a deist pretty much (jsut not as vocal about it), as was Jefferson. And the "Judeo-Christian" morality and its emphasis (by way of Locke, tempered by the Federalist Papers and Tom Paine) on INDIVIDUAL responsibility to Natural Law are what made this country the great place that it is. Make no mistake about it - Natural Law is the bedrock basis for our legal system and our political beliefs. And that is the same Natural Law upon which Catholicism and most Christian denominations rely.

As for this item - all I ask is for them to stop lying to themsleves - they ahve reached the point where they can no more call themselves Christian than Ted Kennedy could call himself Republican. They basically have abandoned over a a milliena of research, pholosophy, tradition, theology and Biblical hermenuetics.

Thats why I posted what I did - they are being dishonest and I was calling attentio to the fact that thier self-promotion as "Christian" doens't survive scrutiny any more than a socialist's claims of being a libertrian.

I have far more respect for honest atheists and truthful agnostics than people who try to take Christianity and bend it into somehting it is not and then claim that it is - and it matters not one whit whether it be David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the Episcopal Church; wrong is wrong.



Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 16:49||   2006-06-20 16:49|| Front Page Top

#23 As for Franklin being an atheist - this statement below puts that to rest:

All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?"

Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention
Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 16:50||   2006-06-20 16:50|| Front Page Top

#24 That also should lay to rest the "disinterested watchmaker" Naturalist diety that many ascribe to Franklin. Clearly, his reference is to a transcendant and eminent God who is inolved in the ways of men, not aa God who set the world in motionthen left it to its own. The phrase about a sparrow is very much a Christian reference: Matt 10:29 (and Luke as well) [The words of Christ] "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's will."

Mind you, I'm NOT saying that Franklin was a Christian per-se, nor that we should have any strangling entanglements between the Church and the State, but that there is more to the story than you learned in school.
Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 17:00||   2006-06-20 17:00|| Front Page Top

#25  Franklin advocated chastity
Yep.

I advise the yoofs to avoids likker and wymns.
Posted by 6 2006-06-20 18:13||   2006-06-20 18:13|| Front Page Top

#26 But BF had a grandson who was a B of a B of a B, so it made financial sense to advise chastity, little late for him tho.
Posted by 6 2006-06-20 18:14||   2006-06-20 18:14|| Front Page Top

#27 Dear Mr. Franklin advocated many things for others, and a decent respect for the appearance of respectability for himself. It sounds as if, like in so many matters, his opinion about the existence and nature of God changed over the course of a long and storied life. He was, among other things, a Mason, and famed in Europe and the Americas for his scientific discoveries. And apparently he found playing the rusticated American was a good way into the perfumed beds of many a noble French lady when he was at court representing his country.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-06-20 19:31||   2006-06-20 19:31|| Front Page Top

#28 Franklin undoutably changed over his lifespan - as do we all.

Some of more than others. You'd not recognize who I was if you only knew me my freshman year in college. Soph year I discovered Rand and W.F. Buckley, and the world changed for me. Joining the Army REALLY changed me. Becoming a Christian and a Catholic changed me yet again. Getting married changed me so much for hte better (I really could not have married any better!). Becoming a father changed me a HUGE amount. Combat changed me further, as did working in a "silent" business.

Im am not even 1% of the callow idiot socialistic moron who started out as a drunken freshman oh so many decades ago.

All the desperation, poverty, inhumanity of man to man, plain old evil, and even the combat & death I saw and caused - they change a person a large amount, and cause you to look outside yoruself for strenght and faith (or navel gze and collapse inward or rail in anger outward as some on the left do).

And yet there are miracles every day if you look for them - people get cured, children born, marrigaes that last, the list goes on. And the older and more experienced I get, the more those "Words in Red" ring with an eternal truth; its a hard but simple truth. The simple things are never easy.


Posted by Oldspook 2006-06-20 22:22||   2006-06-20 22:22|| Front Page Top

#29 so true. Well said. I used to think it was just good "death bed" advice (meaning good advice from those facing what was really most important) but was surprised to find that there's so much more power in it than that. I feel bad the message has been drowned out in today's society.
Posted by 2b 2006-06-20 22:33||   2006-06-20 22:33|| Front Page Top

08:52 pihkalbadger
00:00 newc
23:36 bigjim-ky
23:31 Seafarious
23:28 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:20 Anonymoose
23:13 Frank G
23:12 Frank G
23:06 ed
23:04 Oldspook
23:01 ed
22:57 RWV
22:47 Anonymoose
22:46 Eric Jablow
22:45 Zenster
22:44 Anonymoose
22:40 Zenster
22:39 Sock Puppet of Doom
22:34 Oldspook
22:34 Eric Jablow
22:33 xbalanke
22:33 2b
22:31 Oldspook
22:30 Oldspook
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