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2006-05-21 Southeast Asia
Only ‘miracle’ can save teacher beaten by Muslim mob
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Posted by Sheling Unomons1998 2006-05-21 00:22|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 SU - neutron bombs work wonders, too.

Not advocating violence, you understand.

Just sayin', 's all.
Posted by  Barbara Skolaut"> Barbara Skolaut  2006-05-21 01:40|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]  2006-05-21 01:40|| Front Page Top

#2 Nope - they need to go across the border into Indonesia/Malaysia and start whacking the instigators there.

You know, the same ones that called us assholes in Aceh while we were digging them out from underneath the tsunami wreckage. Yep, *those* Muslims. Same ones that were brutalizing East Timor, and are now terrorizing and preparing to commit genocide against the native (Christian) populations in West Papua (on the island of New Guniea), and lending fiscal support to Abu Sayyaf in the southern philipines.

Yes - those guys. Religion of Peace.


Posted by Oldspook 2006-05-21 02:02||   2006-05-21 02:02|| Front Page Top

#3 Sterilize the village after removing all the females and childen under 12. Leave nothing, not even a bone fragment or grain of cement. Even the "religion of peace" understands that kind of language and action. Repeat the treatment as necessary.
Posted by SPoD 2006-05-21 02:48|| http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]">[http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]  2006-05-21 02:48|| Front Page Top

#4 Note to Thais: either resist with serious punitive force - or submit. You're being bled by your lousy political leadership. Choose someone who will defend you. Or you can do that submit thing.
Posted by random styling 2006-05-21 02:52||   2006-05-21 02:52|| Front Page Top

#5 Living in Bangkok, I always wonder about how little outrage is shown against the clear-cut campaign of extremely deliberate "ethnic cleansing" ongoing in three provinces of Thailand. Locally, I have seen the English translations of the Pattani-Muslim "game plan." It is very simple The Muslims set up Madrasses to educate (indoctrinate) their children. Then, they set out to terrorize and close every non- Muslim shool. That's it. Their rationale is that if they can make Buddhist parents afraid to send their children to school, then those parents will move away - because parents will not allow their children to go unschooled. If the Muslims can drive all the fmilies with school-age children out of "their" provices, they have won - because all the other local Buddhists who do not have school-age children will eventually die, leaving the provinces ethnically "pure".

I am not exaggerating one iota. In many districts, Thai Army soldiers must escort Thai teachers to and from work, and also escort students to and from school. Many dozens of teachers, principals, and other school administrators have been murdered - and attacks continue to occur weekly - all seeking to intimidate surviving Buddhist teachers into giving up and fleeing.

It is incredibly cruel and vicious, but - unfortunately - almost certain to succeed in accomplishing its evil objective.

I cannot imagine what keeps low-paid Thai elementary school teachers in the three troubled provinces on the job. Even if they stay, they will slowly be attritted away by ambushes and attacks.

The Madrasses here are systematically devoted to perpetuating the Muslim violence against their Buddhist neighbors.

Posted by Lone Ranger 2006-05-21 03:01||   2006-05-21 03:01|| Front Page Top

#6 The ring of Truth, LR.

And they can thank the Saudis for it.
Posted by random styling 2006-05-21 03:05||   2006-05-21 03:05|| Front Page Top

#7 Make that we can thank the Saudis for it - there and here at home. Elsewhere we can thank the Iranian Mullahs for it. Everywhere Islam in sufficient numbers touches civilization, we have this cruel shit - or worse.

I'm thinking enough already.
Posted by random styling 2006-05-21 03:19||   2006-05-21 03:19|| Front Page Top

#8 Burn the Madrassas even with the ground. For every Buddhist teacher assulted or killed 5 muslim "teachers" suffer teh same fate. Play their game on them.

Import Buddhist into the region and out populate the muslims. Arm every Buddhist that can will carry a gun. The "milk of human kindness" isn't going to work here.

I personally am all out of 'kindness and charity" for islamic expansionists or those who support them. This should be a diminishing sect.
Posted by SPoD 2006-05-21 03:48|| http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]">[http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]  2006-05-21 03:48|| Front Page Top

#9 SPoD, won't happen, most probably, and most unfortunately.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-05-21 05:30||   2006-05-21 05:30|| Front Page Top

#10 And as that poor woman, well, I hope she recovers, but alas, it's probably better to hope she dies peacefully, and that her family copes as well as possible. Damn.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-05-21 05:32||   2006-05-21 05:32|| Front Page Top

#11 Good post Lone Ranger. It's a perspective that we don't get through the thoroughly corrupted MSM.
Posted by phil_b">phil_b  2006-05-21 06:26|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]  2006-05-21 06:26|| Front Page Top

#12 
Destroy the madrasses, with the Muslim children inside. Past time to go Viking on these barbaric throw-backs.

Islam is a pestilence. Muslims are the carriers. Ten years ago I never would have thought it possible that I would advocate the extermination of an entire group of people.

My how things can change.

-M
Posted by Manolo 2006-05-21 07:10||   2006-05-21 07:10|| Front Page Top

#13 There's a simple answer: run 'em. Tell the Muslims in the three provinces that their religion is banned as a terrorist organization, they themselves are now denied any of the privileges of Thai citizenship, and the Thai Government officially suggests they need to move to Malaysia to be with their coreligionists because Muslims are no longer welcome in Thailand.

The Thai Government should also declare martial law in the provinces, blow up all mosques, summarily execute anyone suspected of assisting the rebels, and deport their extended families immediately. Go draconian on them and teach them a lesson they'll understand. Anything other than extreme harshness the Muzzy bastards mistake for weakness.
Posted by mac 2006-05-21 08:06||   2006-05-21 08:06|| Front Page Top

#14 How many "peaceful" Muslims does it take to beat a small woman to death?
Posted by GK 2006-05-21 09:50||   2006-05-21 09:50|| Front Page Top

#15 Manolo - I identify with the feelings expresed in your post. I remember ten years back or so, watching video footage of uniformed soldiers (Croatian?) in Kosovo, rounding up all the men of a village - ordinary looking enough civilians - tying their hands behind their backs, and then marching them out of the village up hillside trail into the nearby forest. It was maybe 50 men, ages 18-50. The commentator then remarked that these were ethnic Albanian Muslims being marched away, and they were never seen alive again.

As a former US Army Infantry Officer, I was absolutely disgusted with this sequence, and - as I watched - was muttering under my breath that the leaders of those troops needed to be hunted down and strung up for actions of genocide.

Fast-forward to about three years ago, and I found myself once again seeing the exact same video footage (in connection with some ongoing trial in Europe). And - as I watched, I remembered my feelings from long ago. But - I no longer felt the same. All I could think of now was - I guess that military unit was more enlightened into the true nature of the Islamic pestilence than I was when I originally criticized them - and I now sympathized with the defendants.

And - I will admit - I was shocked by my own reversal of outlook - and realized that I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action to preserve a civilized way of life for posterity.

The one other time that I really gained an internal revelation was after reading a L-O-N-G summary of exceptionally heinous Muslim atrocities - and I started thinking of the most outlandishly cruel and evil creations of fiction - when writers of horror films, or science fiction films wanted to outdo themselves by creating the most hideously cruel characters they could imagine. I was specifically thinking of the demonic characters in the "Hellraiser" series by Clive Cussler, and also the fictitous race of evil beings from the "Firefly" series - called The Reavers - and of dear old Hannibal Lechter.

And - all I did was compare the list of recent real atrocities committed in the name of Islam to the fictitous cruelties of the most evil characters that fiction could devise - and I could scarcely detect any difference.

For me to have become so highly polarized is absolutely astounding to me - I did not think I could despise any belief system so thoroughly.

If even one or two percent of the non-Islamic population of Earth ever becomes half as hostile as I now am toward Islam, the Muslims are in deep shit. 'Couldn't happen quickly enough, either.
Posted by Lone Ranger 2006-05-21 10:25||   2006-05-21 10:25|| Front Page Top

#16 I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action to preserve a civilized way of life for posterity.

Lone Ranger, you don't have to become evil to fight evil. Most Muslims just want to raise their children and have them go to school and live happy lives. Don't forget that. You need to separate the good from the bad.

The ancient Egyptians used to believe that when you die your heart was weighed to see if you were more evil than good. I kinda like that analogy (even though I'm a Christian).

I'm all for standing against evil. But you're going to the dark side - pull back!!
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 10:34||   2006-05-21 10:34|| Front Page Top

#17 Most Muslims just want to raise their children and have them go to school and live happy lives. Don't forget that. You need to separate the good from the bad.

Um, when the Muslims make the effort to separate themselves from the bad, I'll feel a hell of a lot better. Look at the story from yesterday, about the Columbus-area imam who talks peace-and-coexistence in English and jihad-and-brimstone in Arabic. It took MEMRI to expose him; it should have been the community.

If a Christian pastor started spouting Christian-identity rhetoric, and the congregation did nothing about it, what would we think about them when it became public? I'd assume they tolerated, or approved, the pastor's opinions.

Why we keep giving Muslims more leeway than we give Christians is a mystery to me.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2006-05-21 11:12|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-05-21 11:12|| Front Page Top

#18 I'm with Manolo and the Ranger and others. I am not comfortable waiting until politics has been played and we are years deeper in this swamp, I want to put an end to Islam NOW. I can read the phalking writing on the wall, why can't the democrats or feminists or collage professors ?
Let's roll !
Posted by wxjames 2006-05-21 11:40||   2006-05-21 11:40|| Front Page Top

#19 The thing that is astounding to me is that these incidents are NEVER discussed in any depth or at all in the MSM. The ultimate cause is found by FOLLOWING THE MONEY. Saudi money goes to so-called charities. The so-called charities send funds to jihadi groups or madarassas. The jihadis, well, jihad with the money. The madarassas take young, sponge-like minds and indoctrinate them into being little psychopaths who are incapable of empathy. Their young minds are WIRED to hate and be fanatics for a twisted cause. Look at Pakistan: thousands of these schools set up. Look at Thailand. Sh*t, look at Europe in their Islamic ghettos, look at Britain. And while you are at it, look at the US. Read some translations of what the Imams are saying in Saudi-finance mosques in this country. This is simple infiltration.

After 9-11, when we started seeing the picture of where all this was coming from, we needed to have given the Taliban 72 hours to come up with Binny and his merry men, or take out the Taliban apparatus right there.

Then we needed to summon the Saudi ambassador and tell him that this financing will stop NOW or we will take out the financiers.

These people, fed by oil money from the civilized world, "our" money, so to speak, are systematically working to destroy the good of what thousands of years of civilization have produced. We are fighting our enemy that we have financed. Everything else is treating the symptoms of the disease.

Our problem is a lack of leadership in facing this real threat, doing something about it, and COMMUNICATING this to the American public.

This incident in Thailand is but the tip of a huge iceberg. Lone Ranger, thanks for the comments from Thailand.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2006-05-21 11:50||   2006-05-21 11:50|| Front Page Top

#20 How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities — but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

- The River War (1899)
Posted by Winston Churchill 2006-05-21 12:00||   2006-05-21 12:00|| Front Page Top

#21 'Sorry 2b - I will not begrudge you your approach, but I'm past the pale. To me, the core religion of Islam is an anathema - it is at its core a VERY intolerant, enslaving, aggressive, and ultra-fundamentalist creed - and it needs to be wiped from the planet as soon as possible. If some adherants of Islam want to break away and form a less extreme form of the religion - OK - but they will then be hunted down and butchered as apostates of Islam - because that is how Islam operates.

I will offer no quarter. They ALL need to perish. And - when it happens, I will shed a few tears for the (relative) innocents - but I will press on - for the greater good of mankind, and my descendants.
Posted by Lone Ranger 2006-05-21 12:17||   2006-05-21 12:17|| Front Page Top

#22 I'm with Alaska Paul. It's way beyond time for people of this country to be told what is being preached in THIS country against us, and for those funding it to be confronted with an ultimatum.

Leaders aren't gonna do it, however. If only because they don't want to be blamed for any resulting violence or economic sabotage. You and I have got to do it, RBers, with friends, relatives, neighbors ... who in some cases aren't gonna want to hear it. Somehow we need to get organized, document this sh*t and make our voices heard.
Posted by past the tipping point 2006-05-21 12:23||   2006-05-21 12:23|| Front Page Top

#23 I'm not at the point of advocating genocide-- not yet. But day by day, I move a little bit more in that direction.

Frankly, I don't think Islam is going to give the non-Islamic world any choice but to either bow down before their hateful, paranoid control freak of a "deity," or annihilate them all.

One or the other. My bet is that eventually, those will be the only two choices.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 12:26||   2006-05-21 12:26|| Front Page Top

#24 I'm with DD. But.... leveling of Madrassahs, rounding up of suspect males and expelling fems and kids to Malaysia are OK. Check back next week and I'll be more hard core
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 12:41||   2006-05-21 12:41|| Front Page Top

#25 It is not of God.
Posted by newc">newc  2006-05-21 12:41||   2006-05-21 12:41|| Front Page Top

#26 Isalmists are a terror organization.
Posted by Thinemp Whimble2412 2006-05-21 12:42||   2006-05-21 12:42|| Front Page Top

#27 Most of us here, through years of observation and study, have arrived at the common conclusion: it's either our way of life and culture or the Death Cult. I have no problem exterminating the death cult. All of them. Now, what is vitally imortant here is that the Buddhists of Thailand and the Christains in Mindanao start fighting for their own preservation. The US, or whomever, cannot save everyone. These peoples must fight or die (or leave, as most non-courageous peoples do). They must understand what they are facing, and make their decision. Look to India. They are tolerant of outrages only to a point. Then Muzzies are exterminated and stacked like cord wood. This is calming only for a short period, until the local imams get these idiots fired up again. They are of the Death Cult, and death is all they really understand. So be it.
Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-05-21 13:32||   2006-05-21 13:32|| Front Page Top

#28 Thank you folks for the thought-provoking comments. Especially Lone Ranger - your comments are obviously long and well-considered and very informative. It has been a long road, but I am there, as well.
Posted by Spimp Greash3798 2006-05-21 13:40||   2006-05-21 13:40|| Front Page Top

#29 I've travelled a similar road. From indifference to Moslems, to the firm conviction that they leave us no choice but to eliminate their religion IF our civilization is to survive and our children to live in freedom.

The Iranian madmen may very well be the ones causing massive war. They're itching for it.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-05-21 14:15|| http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]">[http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]  2006-05-21 14:15|| Front Page Top

#30 I echo #28's sentiments. This is not necessarily a pleasant but it is a sobering and necessary discussion.

I also like #20's post quoting Winston Churchill. I read the book years ago, and recommend it highly. Churchill is right on the mark in his assessment. I just have this horrible feeling that we are going to have to go through a sh*tstorm with this radical Islam thing. It will have to get bad enough for people in general to take action against it.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2006-05-21 14:18||   2006-05-21 14:18|| Front Page Top

#31 I happen to agree with Winston Churchill's comments.

If you want to hunt down the leaders of their army, including the hate spreading holy men and Saudi funding princes, and treat them as such - sign me up. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sign on to sending granny and the curly haired kids into the bread ovens.

The way to a civilized future isn't to going around nuking everyone not like you.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 14:36||   2006-05-21 14:36|| Front Page Top

#32 But liberalhawk tells me it is beastial and sinful to even think about turned off water and food to those who hate and kill.

I vote to give them liberalhawk.
Posted by 3dc 2006-05-21 14:40||   2006-05-21 14:40|| Front Page Top

#33 BESIDES - the fact that we allow them to operate treasonous mosques openly calling for Jihad, play games with the UN, play the Paleo game, etc, etc. is a failure of our society more so than theirs.

If you want to make the world a safer place, you'd be better off wiping out the liberals that provide all the top cover that makes it possible for the evil despots to do their deeds unhindered by civilized society.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 14:43||   2006-05-21 14:43|| Front Page Top

#34 uh..we had a little simultaneous post. Don't want anyone to think I want to wipe out liberal hawk or anything - but hey - it's those failed "enlightened" policies that allow the magic to happen.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 14:45||   2006-05-21 14:45|| Front Page Top

#35 and...lest anyone actually think I'm advocating genocide of liberals - I'm just making a point.

The point is that if you want to wipe out an ideology that allows Nazism, Communism, Islamism to threaten our own civilization - then the liberal ideology is the one that is responsible. But would be absurd to think that you could resolve that problem by killing anyone and everyone who adheres to the liberal faith. It's the same with the Muslims.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 15:07||   2006-05-21 15:07|| Front Page Top

#36 I'll definitely add her to my prayer list, as well. I'll also request the TRUE God to visit appropriate 'remedies' upon those that did this to her. I believe a bite by a mildly-poisonous snake (not one of the dread one-step or two-step varieties but one that takes a day or so to kill, with no known antidote) somewhere painful, would do the trick. Yes, I'm vindictive. People who beat up other people, especially to this degree, deserve no sympathy, and any and all appropriate "rewards" they can be given.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2006-05-21 15:23|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2006-05-21 15:23|| Front Page Top

#37 It's all leadership and money, 2B. It's the money that enables the terror, and it's the leaders pushing the jihadis along, while watching some 5000 yards off through heavy lenses. People like Imams advocating suicide bombing should be targets. People like Adminijacket should not feel safe outside their country (or inside, either). When they feel pain or death, then and only then will they change their ways. You do not have to do a 100 kiloton science project on a population. You need to deal with the instigators of this madness.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2006-05-21 15:28||   2006-05-21 15:28|| Front Page Top

#38 We don't have many choices in dealing with Islamic aggression. Whenever I try to take inventory of our options in this struggle, the list I come up with is pretty short.

In all, I come up with fewer than a dozen distinct possibilities. All of them are bad. Most are VERY bad. A few are just plain horrific.

We could always just surrender, of course: Islam's stated mission is to convert the entire world to Islam, and many Muslims (apparently a growing number) fervently believe that is their manifest destiny. We could dispense with this entire struggle by becoming Muslims and being done with it.

We could try appeasement: buy them off by giving them what they want-- whether money, or license to slaughter all the Jews in Israel or elsewhere, whatever.

We could just ignore Islamic terrorism: shrug off atrocities like the Islamic attacks on 9/11 and those in Madrid, London, Bali, Israel and Beslan.

We could withdraw from the rest of the world and its troubles, keep our heads down and maintain a low profile. We've let our isolationist impulses reign before, maybe we can again.

We could go back to treating Islamic terrorism as a purely criminal matter. Hunt down the terrorists who attack us and prosecute them for their crimes-- but only after they've committed them. Judging by what I've been hearing a lot of liberals saying lately, this seems to be their preferred approach.

We could try to liberate and reform Islamic culture, on the theory that their violent impulses toward non-Muslims arise mainly from their abuse at the hand of despots. This is what we're doing now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe it will work; maybe it won't. Maybe it will only work half-assed, at far too high a price. We'll see. So far the results don't look very promising IMO.

We could try relying on intrusive domestic security measures, preventing future terrorist attacks by turning America into a police state-- complete with intrusive government monitoring of all aspects of our lives and suspension of habeus corpus. Anyone even suspected of terrorist activity or sympathies, simply disappears in the middle of the night.

We could respond to future terrorist attacks (or threat of attack) by brute conquest and subjugation: invade their countries, assassinate their political and religious leaders, outlaw Islam and bulldoze their mosques, and rule them with an iron fist.

We could resort to collective punishment, responding to terrorist attacks on American soil with extravagently disproportionate retaliation against their cities and their infrastructure. Repeated often enough, this will eventually lead to deterrence.

We could resort to expulsion and quarantine-- outlaw Islam within the U.S. and expel all Muslims, citizens or not. Forbid entry into the U.S., even for brief visits, to all Muslims regardless of country of origin, and all nationals of whatever religion from countries that are predominantly Muslim. Seal the Canadian and Mexican borders tight with orders to shoot to kill, and NOT ask questions later.

And finally, we could end this once and for all with a 30-minute war of utter annihilation: just nuke the entire Islamic world and let our descendents deal with a thousand years of collective guilt.

And that's it. You can combine some of the above in varying degrees, and there is some interpolation possible between some of the above; but I think this list pretty much outlines the range of possible responses to Islamic terrorism.

Not good. Not good, at all.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 15:45||   2006-05-21 15:45|| Front Page Top

#39 Dave - good post - but anhilating them won't do it. Why? Because this world is about balance - not right v/s wrong. You can't nuke human nature and things like the lust for power, rounding up sheep to gain power, and all the dirty dealings be they KKK, Islamist fanatics, mobsters, slave traders, drug dealers, etc won't disappear if you slaughtered every Muslim on the planet. Besides - then you are the evil that you wanted to destroy.

Our forefathers understood this - thus the balance of power. That's what makes our society work. Pit the strong and ambitious against the strong and ambitious and they will prevent one force from gaining absolute power to take advantage of the less strong. It balances the evil of power.

We've been taught that there is right and wrong - and if you view the world in that light you will always be disappointed - because there are no two people on the face of the planet who will agree on what's right and what's wrong. But there is good and evil - it is in each of us and the trick is to try to get evil and good into balance. I know it sounds trite - but there's a reason discussions of good v/s evil have been around for ever.

It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 16:05||   2006-05-21 16:05|| Front Page Top

#40 oh.. and I meant to say - that's why I agree with Alaska Paul's take on things. You have to rally the good to destroy what's evil - not just kill a bunch of families who are really just minding their own business, following the culture they were raised in.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 16:09||   2006-05-21 16:09|| Front Page Top

#41 It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.

You're confusing your internal dialogue about morals with defense against physical terror attacks, against horrifically torturous slaughter by slow decapitation and against honor rapes and willful subjugation of women and all the other happy dialogues-in-action that characterize a fair number of young Muslim men with few if any doubts about their own justification for it all.

I'll deal with my inner dialogue after I'm done shooting the first son of a bitch that tries to force me into a chador. And my trigger finger is itching about the others who have done those other things to powerless women and men.

Pfeh. My daughter was 1/4 mile from the Twin Towers on 9/11. We had friends in the wing of the pentagon that was hit that day. I know and care for soldiers who've served in Iraq. None of them has had the detached luxury of your navel gazing, 2b. And while none of them thinks they are morally perfect, they're pretty sure there is such a thing as good and evil. And they're pretty sure there are actual physical people out there who have tried and might try again to kill them - an attitude they take offense at.

So do I.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 16:14||   2006-05-21 16:14|| Front Page Top

#42 sheesh lotp! I didn't think you had it in ya! :-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 16:20||   2006-05-21 16:20|| Front Page Top

#43 "Dave - good post - but anhilating them won't do it."

Excuse me? Where the hell did I say it would?????

I said those were our options. I also said they were all bad. Did you not comprehend that?????

"It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good."

Oh, bullshit. Save your moral hair-splitting for people who enjoy such witless twaddle. (Hint: that would NOT be me.)

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 16:34||   2006-05-21 16:34|| Front Page Top

#44 Frank, it's one thing to recoil from mass attacks on Muslims as a solution to the dangerous erosion of world order that Islamacists are creating. I cerntainly do.

It's another thing to suggest that we all just chant a centering mantra and find inner balance, as if that is either effective or the responsible thing to do in the face of the horrific acts that murderous barbarians are commiting in the name of Islam -- and against which I have yet to see many Muslims take arms themselves to prevent.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 16:37||   2006-05-21 16:37|| Front Page Top

#45 sigh. I don't recall saying that I don't think that those who try to force you into slavery or who want to fly planes into building should not be destroyed.

I give up. If you want to rally the blood lust that gets innocent people killed, and I'm talking about the people who have done nothing to you - not those fighting in the army of Jihad - then go for it. After all, they deserve it, right. That makes it all ok.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 16:38||   2006-05-21 16:38|| Front Page Top

#46 btw - lopt - nice save on coming in late to the discussion and then saying it's only the moral portion of my argument you disagree with.

My whole conversation was a "recoil from mass attacks on Muslims as a solution to the dangerous erosion of world order that Islamacists are creating".
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 16:44||   2006-05-21 16:44|| Front Page Top

#47 and Dave - same point. You threw it out there as an option - I responded to that option. I never made any claims as to what soution you proposed.

Rallying blood lust has consequences - I don't think it should be left unanswered.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 16:47||   2006-05-21 16:47|| Front Page Top

#48 I'd suggest when countering an enemy whose religious doctrine allows the killing of infidel men, women, and children, that you may have to respond in a matter you wouldn't normally use, as in : in kind. That's worst case. "Innocents" of Islam should be noticed what's coming and given the choice to surrender the guilty or face the emptying of the swamp they hide in, by whatever measures necessary. I'd start with Balochistan as an example. Arclight on the villages and smuggling paths endangering our troops in Afghanistan. Next up - the Iranian border. Stop infiltration of IED's, spies, IRGC assholes.
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 17:08||   2006-05-21 17:08|| Front Page Top

#49 It just occurred to be that there is a hidden balance... Just as some half-assed Muslims will fall, so shall some half-assed Westerners be saved.
Posted by Spimp Greash3798 2006-05-21 17:14||   2006-05-21 17:14|| Front Page Top

#50 2b, you lost me right about the time you wrote anhilating them won't do it. Why? Because this world is about balance - not right v/s wrong. You can't nuke human nature and things like the lust for power, rounding up sheep to gain power, and all the dirty dealings be they KKK, Islamist fanatics, mobsters, slave traders, drug dealers, etc won't disappear if you slaughtered every Muslim on the planet.

Because, see, while that might be true, it's also the case that a major counterattack is ONE way to end the very dangerous war the jihadis and their sponsors are currently waging.

I'm not saying it's the only way -- and neither is Dave, if I read him correctly. But to assert that it would not go a long way to dealing with the current situation is .... naive. At best.

And disingenuous when it leads to It's not abut the Muslims v/s us or the communists v/s us, but in about keeping the evil inside each one of us balanced with good.

First of all, you know perfectly well that many here have been wrestling since 9/11 precisely to know whether it really is the Muslims vs. us. Some have reluctantly come to the conclusion that, for all practical matters, it is.

And second, I'm the wrong person to include the "Communists vs. us" bit with. Over 90% of my father's family died in the Russian revolution and under Stalin. Don't even BEGIN to tell me that what really counted wrt the communists is my personal inner moral balance. I know what my family suffered at the hands of the communist regime - in the flesh and in the spirit both.

There is perhaps a case to be made that some critical mass of Muslims are totally innocent of any complicity and support for what is being done in the name of Islam. There is certainly a case to be made for not lightly contemplating a massive defensive attack to end the war that has been declared and is being waged, not only on us, but on the very basis of our civilization.

But you haven't made those cases pursuasively ... and you undercut your case when you reduced the serious issues to one of seeking inner moral balance. That is an individual issue for us all to contemplate, to be sure. But I for one will not countenance the suggestion that that SUFFICES as a response to the evil being perpetrated on live human beings in the physical world.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 17:17||   2006-05-21 17:17|| Front Page Top

#51 The world is too small in this day and age to solve problems by seeing people as "them v/s us".

Which is my point - there are people who work towards evil ends and there are people like you and me - who are a part of a culture that is often responsible for bad things. That the Muslim religion incites hate does not mean that all Muslims are bad people.

No - I'm not saying that you are saying that they are. But in a terrorist global war we need to rethink what makes someone an enemy and someone a productive member of society. Membership in a race or religion can not be the determining factor in today's world. Thus my point -- perhaps badly stated.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-21 17:27||   2006-05-21 17:27|| Front Page Top

#52 Hitler would've been proud of you guys. Nice thread. You've just handed the presidency to Democrats for eons to come. Congrats.
Posted by Gromble Unereling9753 2006-05-21 17:29||   2006-05-21 17:29|| Front Page Top

#53 #15 LR, welcome to the club---I've felt this way since the first time I did reserve duty during the first Intifada.
Posted by gromgoru 2006-05-21 17:31||   2006-05-21 17:31|| Front Page Top

#54 I don't disagree with that last point, 2b. But here's the rub: this isn't a theoretical discussion. A significant minority of Muslims, funded by the Saudis and others and armed with very public statements by senior Muslim religious leaders, want to kill us and destroy our civilization.

They want this in a world in which weapons of mass destruction allow barbarians to do a whole lot more damage than the Vandals did to Rome or the Huns came close to doing in Europe.

And I don't really see much in the way of active opposition to them from other Muslim leaders.

Given all that, what do YOU propose is a basis for proceding, 2b? Because it's not me who has defined things as "us vs. them" - THEY have indicated their willingness to wage war to the death, over as many years as it takes them to win. So if you want to dismantle the "us vs. them" mentality, you're going to have to come up with some solution to the war they are waging and intend to keep waging that is based on exactly that premise.

For my part, I don't like any of the aternatives I see before us, each of which has effects that are horrid. The question is which ones we will end up choosing ... or if we wait to choose so long that we lose the chance to choose.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 17:33||   2006-05-21 17:33|| Front Page Top

#55 And also, this thread deserves a bookmark, for future reference. Fred, I suggest the classics page.

And to think I was once like you. May God have mercy on your souls, what little you deserve.
Posted by Uligum Shatle4006 2006-05-21 17:35||   2006-05-21 17:35|| Front Page Top

#56 Hey GU9753 and US4006 we didn't start the f*cking war they did, want me to feel bad cause we are tired screw you.
Posted by djohn66 2006-05-21 17:38||   2006-05-21 17:38|| Front Page Top

#57 Same IP address for them, via an anonymizing server in Europe.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 17:39||   2006-05-21 17:39|| Front Page Top

#58 I do enjoy the sputtering moral posturing of those who have no actual experience or knowledge of the subject. It's so special and convincing.
Posted by Spimp Greash3798 2006-05-21 17:41||   2006-05-21 17:41|| Front Page Top

#59 2b, are you suggesting that we should ask ourselves what we're doing wrong? are you hinting that there is somehow something evil in our civilization? I note that this is the constant refrain from liberals and islamofascists.

Which many sane people are finding strange and disturbing, when the only choice offered to us is "convert, submit or die, infidel!" So when the infidels are saddened to observe that there may unfortunately not be much choice other than total war in self-defense, you come along and tell us we should instead question our inner balance of good and evil?

When someone wants to enslave me or kill me, I fight back in the name and tradition of the American Revolution -- I don't fall into a catatonic state of inner word salad.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-05-21 17:52|| http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]">[http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]  2006-05-21 17:52|| Front Page Top

#60 lotp, remember this and remember it well: "The worst woes will come to those, who heap their grief by blood of sheep."

Unless you don't believe in God.
Posted by Ulavising Elmavitle5134 2006-05-21 18:02||   2006-05-21 18:02|| Front Page Top

#61 I've read the history of other civilizations under assault by barbarian hordes. Some succeeded in repelling and occasionally civilizing them.

Others fell because of their arrogance combined with decadence.

I have no desire to deal out death indiscriminately. But neither have I a desire to see my civilization destroyed or in bondage. I'd rather avoid the former. I *will* do what I can to avoid the latter. If I could, I would wave a majic wand and have neither come to pass.

However, the decision isn't really mine. I didn't start this war. The decision lies in the hands of those within the Muslim world who will choose either to put an end to the destructive and dangerous madness of the jidhadis and the Ahmadinajads of the Muslim world -- or not. Ask me to take great risks but do not ask me to endanger my daughter's remaining life, or that of the young of my country.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 18:06||   2006-05-21 18:06|| Front Page Top

#62  "Same IP address for them, via an anonymizing server in Europe.

Same turd in the punch bowl as last week ned I presume as well, Stupid self hating "liberal" westerner or a "educated muslim". NO matter they are totally wrong.

The choices all suck. I put the survival of the west over the survival of islam. I am ready for the "1000 years of guilt." We are running out of time. Lots of the west has been eating stupid soup passed out by the MSM. 99.9% don't have any inkling of the facts. IMNSHO it's "Option #9."
Tell me when it's happning. I'll put on some sad music, cry and, survive along with my now forever changed civilization but I'll survive at least.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2006-05-21 18:07||   2006-05-21 18:07|| Front Page Top

#63 G*d destroyed Sodom and Gomora, what is your point UE5134
Posted by djohn66 2006-05-21 18:09||   2006-05-21 18:09|| Front Page Top

#64 Ask me to take great risks but do not ask me to endanger my daughter's remaining life, or that of the young of my country.

Did you ever think that your actions and words might put your daughter at even greater risk than would otherwise be necessary?

I honestly thought 9/11 would take some people out of the bubble in which they lived but you seem to have retreated into an even bigger bunker instead. If that's the kind of world you want, then I hope you never win, because I don't want it.
Posted by Jeager Whiling6233 2006-05-21 18:20||   2006-05-21 18:20|| Front Page Top

#65 Anonymizer,
You seem free with criticism, but stingy with solutions. Since you so much to criticize, you must have better solutions but are just to modest to share with us. Well, don't be afraid. Dazzle us with your magnificent brilliance. What is your solution to islamic imperialism? Don't be afraid to give a detailed proposal.
Posted by ed 2006-05-21 18:30||   2006-05-21 18:30|| Front Page Top

#66 Did you ever think that your actions and words might put your daughter at even greater risk than would otherwise be necessary?

No. It's a possibility I was cautious about after 9/11, just as I was extremely cautious about coming to conclusions about the role of the wider Islamic world as an opponent of western democracy. The reaction of Frank G. above to my comments is based on that long-held caution.

Nor I do now hold for certain the position you seem to think I hold. I do not want to see a major attack on Islam as a whole. But I am increasingly uncertain there is any other way out. And I am NOT willing to take the route that Europe is taking. There is ample precedent for what happens when civilizations try to buy themselves a little peace and decadence by bribing the barbarians. And even more precedent for what happens when some members of the civilization cut side deals with the barbarians for shortterm profit, as it would appear more than one European leader and company are doing and have been doing for years.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 18:32||   2006-05-21 18:32|| Front Page Top

#67 not a chance - we see it as an awakening - a chance to take the offensive to Islamopukes who would harm us. You sound distressed.... perhaps you or loved ones are in the target crossshairs?
Allan will protect you. Just keep saying that
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 18:32||   2006-05-21 18:32|| Front Page Top

#68 I honestly thought 9/11 would take some people out of the bubble in which they lived but you seem to have retreated into an even bigger bunker instead.

You'll need to be more specific about that bubble you think I lived in. I've done business and travelled in the middle East. And in Europe (both) as well and have done business in the far East. I read several languages besides English, among them a little Arabic. There's a good chance I'm better read in the literature and philosophy of western civilization than you are. I say that for context, not as a brag - I am older than many posters here and had the benefit of a classical education that is far from common these last 20 or 30 years now.

And I am somewhat read in both middle and far Eastern thought as well. Except for European culture I will not claim mastery, but I have seriously attempted to understand middle eastern and far eastern cultures on their own terms, including Islam.

Or did you mean a bubble about social issues and conditions? Tell us a little about your own experiences, then. Because I and my family have lived on several continents, fought in and survived (painfully) several wars and one genocide aimed at us in the course of the last 125 years or so. And I have volunteered my time, money and caring in places like the barrios of LA, and South Central in the time of the Crips and the Bloods.

I come to my convictions after great thought. I am not unread in - or unreflective on - the Christian tradition, Eastern, Roman, Protestant and the anabaptist communities as well. I hold a Master of Divinity degree from a well-known seminary but have chosen a secular career in a field that is irrelevant for this thread.

What bubble then are you so sure I live in, anonymous poster? If I have rejected pacifism I have done so after thought and prayer. Are your own convictions as well grounded? If so, follow them faithfully - but beware of spiritual pride as you judge others.

Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 18:38||   2006-05-21 18:38|| Front Page Top

#69 On the topic of "options"...

I figure that for at least the next 2-1/2 years we're committed to the "liberation and reform" option in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that's as it should be; it's something we simply must try, and try as best we can, if for no other reason than to be able to say honestly, "we really did try to show the Islamic world a better way, and we gave it everything we had." And I don't see this administration abandoning that commitment, not even in the face of another mass-casualty terrorist attack.

But I don't see us extending that effort anywhere else but where we're already making it. Not even under GWB, and certainly not under any possible successor-- Republican or Democrat. After watching the wringer Bush has been put through the last four years, can you imagine ANY future American president making the political decision to undertake yet another "long, hard slog" like Iraq, in yet another Muslim country? I can't.

So as best I can figure, once Bush leaves office, the Bush Doctrine is effectively dead. The "nation building" part of it most certainly will be, and the "pre-emption" part of it may be as well, particularly if he is replaced by a Democrat.

And if Bush's successor has to deal with another 9/11-style mass-casualty terrorist attack-- or even worse, such as a terrorist nuke going off in Lower Manhattan-- what option(s) will he choose?

I hope we don't have to find out. I really don't.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 18:50||   2006-05-21 18:50|| Front Page Top

#70 I think pre-emption will remain as long as the axis remains. Syria is ripe, then Lebanon can self-police the camps and hezbollah. Iran has unwittingly bitten off more than they can chew
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 19:02||   2006-05-21 19:02|| Front Page Top

#71 I can't see any Democrat risking pre-emption, Frank; I just don't see how he/she could figure on surviving politically, given how their "base" has been acting.

And I'm not too confident any of the available Republicans would risk it, either.

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 19:07||   2006-05-21 19:07|| Front Page Top

#72 Courage seems in short supply these days, is what I'm saying (outside our military, that is).
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2006-05-21 19:08||   2006-05-21 19:08|| Front Page Top

#73 No other terror-supporting nation will be invaded by the West. The left has made it politically impossible.

I don't think that's by accident, or without the encouragement of our enemies.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2006-05-21 19:08|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-05-21 19:08|| Front Page Top

#74 The USA was founded with freedom of religion in mind. However, If a single religion undertakes the methodical elimination of people who do not practice that religion, then, that dogma is anti-constitutional. As such, we should debate whether we should allow that religion to exists within our borders. Most of us here today, vote no. Furthermore, just kicking Islam out of the USA does not extend the hand of protection the USA has come to offer repeatedly to other peoples. Today there are many countries on the brink of civil war or collapse into dhimmitude through immigration and birthrate. There are other countries, both allies and former enemies who are faced with the same set of circumstances, Islamic radical violence. The world body, the UN, has shown itself as incapable of taking meaningful action on such a scale. We cannot wait for strength to grow out of corruption, indifference and selfishness. We must either act for all the world , or isolate ourselves and watch as the world struggles against suffocation. I say the USA leads the world, and we have for decades, so we must take responsibility for the difficult decision on the fate of Islam. I believe there are Muslims who do not buy into the violence, and would take an exit if they knew they would not be killed. I would urge that exit be provided. I would also urge that Islam be denounced and hounded to extinction. To do so, all mosques must be destroyed, and all korans burned, and believe me, I don't write that in jest. This is a sobering conclusion. Finally, the practice of Islam removed from earth without a trace, forever after.
Posted by wxjames 2006-05-21 19:10||   2006-05-21 19:10|| Front Page Top

#75 We will have to Shermanize the ME. Note that Sherman dealt out and took a lot less casualties than Grant. But by the time he was done there was no question in anyone's mind that a way of l;ife had been rooted out, once and for all. We are going to have to do the same for Arab Islamic fundamentalism. As for the rest of the Ummah, they can draw the proper consclusion or suffer the treatment themselves, just as the balance of the Confederacy did after Sherman got done with South Carolina and Georgia.

All that frightens me is what it is going to require for this nation to develop the resolve to implement the solution.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-05-21 19:10||   2006-05-21 19:10|| Front Page Top

#76 I'm not suggesting a Donk can be elected President, DD
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 19:12||   2006-05-21 19:12|| Front Page Top

#77 I kinda like what Dirty Harry once said about dogshit. It either get shoveled up, stepped in, or dries up, crumbles and blows away.

Stepping in dogshit is what we're doing right now. It's a nasty, smelly, a lot of work to clean it up, spreads the dogshit all around, and leaves most of the turd there for someone else to come along and step in it.

Shoveling it up is what happens after a few more major attrocities and we fight a long war of attrition/exhaustion/annihilation (pick one or more of the above). This will be expensive. We'll get our "thousand years of guilt" and our penance will be lifetimes of having whiny liberals rub it in our faces.

Drying and blowing away in the wind is what happens to Islam if we seize the oilfields and cut off the revenue. Alternatively, through some weird physics or immense capital investment, energy independence will have the same effect.

Dar al Islam has two centers of gravity: energy and religion. Take away energy and religion dries up. Islam is the most materialistic of religions. The muezzin call out, "Come to the success," after all. Muhammed chastized his opponents as "losers." Take away the success and the whole civilization collapses. Going to a Muslim country will become as depressing as going to an Indian reservation, but its cheaper and less damning than the course we seem stuck on.

As always, I must acknowledge PD for his insights on that 40 km strip.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-05-21 19:13||   2006-05-21 19:13|| Front Page Top

#78 One of the amazing things to me is how quickly Bush and his advisors developed their doctrinal strategy and began executing it. I will forever be grateful to them for not wasting a dozen cruise missiles on tents in the middle of nowhere and calling it done. We'd be in deep shit if Gore or Kerry had been elected. Really. Deep. Shit.

Instead, Bush has taken the most humane of Dave D's options and is giving it a real chance - in the face of the horrific political grilling and personal demonization that Dave refers to. He's not a Teflon President, he's the Stainless Steel President.

Now, he's under attack from all sides, including his own base, because the long hard slog he told us about is inconveniently long and hard and he's dropped the ball on the sleeper domestic issue of the century - immigration.

I don't have a prediction, just faith that we will eventually prevail over the enemies of Freedom, both those within and without. And, IMHO, good intentions do not excuse misinformed or malignant opposition.
Posted by Spimp Greash3798 2006-05-21 19:19||   2006-05-21 19:19|| Front Page Top

#79 But I am increasingly uncertain there is any other way out.

In a way that is a very profound statement, and it only reaffirms what I think is the main difference between you and me. I won't bore you with the details, except to say that I too, have seen much of this world, yet we seem to hold such diametrically opposed perspectives on this issue. Which one of us is correct?

Nor I do now hold for certain the position you seem to think I hold. I do not want to see a major attack on Islam as a whole.

You are free to attack Islam all you want, and you might even be right in doing so. It's the attack on all Muslims with which I have a problem. That's because I fear I may not be far behind them. I am not doing all I can to speak out against the anti-American rhetoric that I hear around me on a daily basis. Are you going to condemn me as well? As Frank G. pointed out, should I be worried that I might be in your crosshairs?

All that wisdom and knowledge and worldly experience, yet you see 9/11 as the start of something, rather than a culmination, or at least a continuance. You fail to notice when westernised Afghan children speak well of their Jewish neighbours, yet despise everything American. That is the bubble I was refering to.

If I have rejected pacifism I have done so after thought and prayer.

I am not a pacifist, far from it. But I draw the line at genocide. From birth I have been given the freedom to choose between good and evil. I am not about to take that freedom away from others.
Posted by Pheremp Flomorong7850 2006-05-21 19:45||   2006-05-21 19:45|| Front Page Top

#80 9/11 was the start of this phase of the war of Islamacists on the West. The first phase of open war dates from the 1970s. The conflict goes much farther back ... in many ways it has existed since the 600s. It is a war both of belief AND of the Ummah against the west. As it stands, I am hard-pressed to see how they can co-exist peacefully. Western civilization does not seek, by and large, to dominate through force at this point ... but it does tend to fill all the space available. Civilizations based on individual initiative tend to do that. Islam seeks to control and impose dominance, both of thought and of action.

I would gladly see an opening that would allow peaceful coexistence of the west and Islam. So far I'm not getting a warm feeling about that happening, you know?

Westernized Afghan children are free to criticize America. You're free to do the same and I will fight for your right to do that. I have little respect for much of American pop and academic cultures (both) myself, and for some of our national actions over the course of my lifetime.

I do take it, though, that neither you nor they are planning to go the next few steps and attempt to destroy that culture and country, or impose Islam or any other totalitarian way of life on me? Fine then, we don't have a problem with one another that rises to the level of conflict. But those who do have made themselves my enemy and I will not flinch from looking that fact square on. It is not a fact I relish -- but a fact it is.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 19:54||   2006-05-21 19:54|| Front Page Top

#81 Hang the Imams by their own intestines.

Burn the madrassas to the ground.

Thats a start. And if that doest work, then level the Mosques, and start exiling the Muslims to Muslim nations.

Its a cultural war - they started it and they only have one way they can finish it: with the utter destructionand subjugation of western civilization. And thats the only terms they will accept - and the only terms that they will abide by in return.

They've called the tune. They set the terms. Our only choice is do we want to be on the giving or the receiving end of the destruction.


Posted by Oldspook 2006-05-21 19:59||   2006-05-21 19:59|| Front Page Top

#82 Insofar as genocide is concerned, I do not recommend that. But erasure of the culture and those who support it is paramount. And that means go after the Muslims like we went after Nazis - utterly ruthlessly and with no remorse.

Either an acceptable form of Islam wil result from a reformation, or else the Koran will end up placed in the same collection as Mein Kampf: evil basis for an evil but dead ideology.
Posted by Oldspook 2006-05-21 20:04||   2006-05-21 20:04|| Front Page Top

#83 Anonymizer,
Still waiting for you to enlighten the rabble with your wise, knowledgable and worldly solution to genocidal, islamic imperialism.
Posted by ed 2006-05-21 20:12||   2006-05-21 20:12|| Front Page Top

#84 But erasure of the culture and those who support it is paramount. And that means go after the Muslims like we went after Nazis - utterly ruthlessly and with no remorse.

Should have put that in bold, Oldspook, lest anyone is still uncertain what you stand for. And you claim to be a Christian (Catholic?).

Still waiting for you to enlighten the rabble with your wise, knowledgable and worldly solution to genocidal, islamic imperialism

Kill those that are killing you, leave everyone else alone. Or is that too pacifist for you?

What a difference half of a century makes. Americans chose not to participate in Britain's strategic bombing campaign of WW2, choosing instead to go for precise targeting at far greater risk during day missions (as opposed to the British fire bombing missions at night). And now look at you.
Posted by Jereng Thraick2725 2006-05-21 20:51||   2006-05-21 20:51|| Front Page Top

#85 I'd prefer not to commit gruesome acts...however gruesome it gets...The liberals who find this distasteful....

I'd venture most people consider genocide distasteful, Liberals or no.
Posted by Omemble Glease7982 2006-05-21 21:01||   2006-05-21 21:01|| Front Page Top

#86 nobody humanly advocates genocide. Was Dresden or Tokyo genocide? They were disgustingly necessary attacks. If the Lions of Islam continue to hide among innocents, women and children, the options open to us are narrower, but not closed. I say one big attack on American soil and te Donks are done, Islam takes a whacking and yes, a lot of the innocent pond among which the "ALLOWED scum" thrive dies as well. It's called a "new start". If Islamists weren't so fucking stupid and loved their wives abnd kids more than death, they wouldn't make this the only choice. F*&K them and their incivility. Guilt? I got none if we deal with this cancer
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-05-21 21:03||   2006-05-21 21:03|| Front Page Top

#87 O anonymous one. You do not understand modern warfare. It is no longer about some king or prince losing his nerve on the battlefield and surrendering his kingdom. It is about whole nations and civilization maintaining or losing their will.

Kill those that are killing you. Harumph. That makes it so individual. What happens when there is a large scale consensus on the opposing side that they should kill you -- when it's the demos you are fighting and not just the leaders? Does Dresden, Tokyo, and Hiroshima make sense in that context?

Modern, networked societies are self-assembling teams oriented on certain goals. When those goals include massive proliferation of nuclear weapons technology, widespread support of dawa and jihad, and ethnic cleansing (the Armenians, the Shephardic Jews, the Animists, the Christians,... need I go on?) then our society is at war with their society. It's not about individuals anymore. The Germans would have gone over to guerilla warfare if we had not demonstrated that we we prepared to annihilate them. Likewise with the Japanese. Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima were essential in that context. If you cannot understand that and how it relates to the current conflict, there is no basis for debate here. We are just arguing past each other.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-05-21 21:39||   2006-05-21 21:39|| Front Page Top

#88 JT,
Tell us how to kill those who want to kill us? Who are they? How do you recognize and separate them? Does your death list include those who give money to kill us? How about those who chant Death to Jews/Europe and sign up for suicide squads? How about those that plot death from European cities? A little stategic bombimg in order?

As for not "Americans chose not to participate in Britain's strategic bombing campaign of WW2", you are kidding right? Tell that to 100,000+ Tokyan that burned to death in one night. Makes Dresden look like the work of amateur firebugs. What you forget, it that American fought the enemy as cruelly as they were to us. You claim to be worldly, but you are extremly ignorant of history, especially what took place outside your little environs. Read up a little on the extreme cruelty of the Pacific War. If the Germans acted as cruelly to GI Joe or NYC Jane as they did to the Russians, I guarantee you the Americans would not have been satisfied just to rape every German they got their hands on or ship everything to Russia that was not embedded in concrete.

Face it JT, muslim imperialism is much crueller than either German Nazi or Japanese imperialism. They have killed many more people, the more passive, the more cruel and inventive they become. Just in the Indian subcontinent, muslim conquerers have killed 60-80 million buddhist and hindus. At the time, the total world population was about 320 million. At the time of the invasions, world population to a significant drop due to the absolute slaughter by muslims. Notice the pacifist buddhists are no more in their place of birth.

I say fight fire with fire. Apply islamic law, both in written and as practiced, to muslims. Of course, muslims will be the infidels in this application. Use muslim laws proscribed for Jews as the basis of our treatment for them. If islam is the religion of peace and justice, what could be more fair. Isn't this wbhat all muslims ever claim to want? When all is done, Americans can go back to making money and watching Britney, but islam won't.
Posted by ed 2006-05-21 21:40||   2006-05-21 21:40|| Front Page Top

#89 Our anonymous one is right that the US chose riskier targeted bombings for a good part of WWII.

S/he rather ignores that we are doing exactly the same thing in Iraq: choosing to take the riskier, slower road and accepting casualties rather than, for instance, bombing Fallujah and Ar Ramadi into dust. We have a tendency to go that route ... up to a point.
Posted by lotp 2006-05-21 21:54||   2006-05-21 21:54|| Front Page Top

#90 Why are you all stillplaying with this turd who keeps letting the name generator give them a new name? It's pointless. You will never be in agreement with them no matter what you say or do. It's typical wanker activity. They are a but, but, but artist.

Don't play with your food.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2006-05-21 22:11||   2006-05-21 22:11|| Front Page Top

#91 Anom forgot that the one thing the Germans hated about Americans was it overwhelming use of artillery and I gaurantee it was not accurate about what it was hitting.
Posted by djohn66 2006-05-21 22:14||   2006-05-21 22:14|| Front Page Top

#92 S/he rather ignores that we are doing exactly the same thing in Iraq: choosing to take the riskier, slower road and accepting casualties...

What I haven't ignored however, are the calls for genocide in this thread. It doesn't get any more explicit than this.

People seem to be confusing the call for the extermination of a group of people, and the death of civilians in combat. The goal of WW2 was not the extermination of an entire group of people, a culture or religion. Contrast with the comments in this thread.

I'm glad to hear that this will make the classics. Very revealing stuff.
Posted by Slavirt Hupavins9373 2006-05-21 23:02||   2006-05-21 23:02|| Front Page Top

#93 It was the extermination of nazism and all the innocents that died with it, muslims are not a race it is a religion, just like some people thought nazism was the best thing for everbody involved the muslims think the same way.Thier way is better than ours and for them to win, we must die.
Posted by djohn66 2006-05-21 23:07||   2006-05-21 23:07|| Front Page Top

#94 Wrong. Nazism was extermnated. Bushido was exterminated. I suggest muslims convert quickly.
Posted by ed 2006-05-21 23:07||   2006-05-21 23:07|| Front Page Top

#95 Sorry we are calling for the elimination of a sect. Genocide is seen against a racial group. islam is not a racial group it's as varied as human kind is. It is black brown red yellow and white. So the "genocide" card doesn't play. It can't trump anything in this discussion.

But, but, but that.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2006-05-21 23:25||   2006-05-21 23:25|| Front Page Top

#96 If you choose to claim that "self-defense" is "genocide", that's your problem. Should Islamofascists continue to attempt to enslave or kill us, we won't let them, and we'll defend ourselves by killing them in very large numbers --including many of their friends, supporters, and allies-- IF they force us to. Did you notice the "IF" ?

The Western world is built on a compact of freedom and self-preservation. Self-defense includes the right to kill whoever threatens your life and liberty; the pain or death inflicted to by-standers is entirely the moral responsibility of the one who initiated the use of force. One can take precautions to avoid hurting innocents, but one is not morally obligated to do so at the expense of one's own life or limb.

IF Islamofascists force our hand, we MAY have to resort to total war against the Ummah that supports them. Then they'd go the way of the blood-thirsty Carthaginians and Aztecs -- and I don't see many of those around to make the West feel guilty for its freedom, development and prosperity.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-05-21 23:35|| http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]">[http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/]  2006-05-21 23:35|| Front Page Top

#97 Sure, I guess we can play word games now.


I will admit - I was shocked by my own reversal of outlook - and realized that I am now truly an advocate of outright genocide of the global Islamic population - as an unfortunate, yet necessary preemptive action - Lone Ranger

Destroy the madrasses, with the Muslim children inside. Past time to go Viking on these barbaric throw-backs...Ten years ago I never would have thought it possible that I would advocate the extermination of an entire group of people. - Manolo
Posted by Sluse Thrumble1233 2006-05-21 23:36||   2006-05-21 23:36|| Front Page Top

#98 What I haven't ignored however, are the calls for genocide in this thread. It doesn't get any more explicit than this.

I've been hanging out here a lot longer than you have O anonymous one. Folks here are just being honest. Fire bombing and nuking of cities while slowly starving the population was genocidal. Wiping out cultures (as we effectively did in Germany and Japan, see Ed's post)was genocidal. Dar al Islam is a zero sum culture arrayed against our non-zero sum culture. There is a widepsread consensus within DaI that we are not creating wealth, but rather stealing it from them. This is the natural result of a zero sum outlook. As evidenced from rhetoric, opinion polls, and donations to "charities," a large majority of Muslims would like to see the West humbled or destroyed, dhimmitized, and raided for booty. Probably the only way to change the Islamic civilizational outlook is to either kill a lot of them or destroy their civilization and culture (as summarized by my "seize the oil fields" strategy). Even if we chose the second, more humane course of action, many will die from poverty and lack of medical care as Saudi Arabia and Iran implode and their client states starve.

Any way you cut it, genocide, as defined by international law is the correct description. I'm really sorry that you are offended by that. I don't like it either. I think that the reason that you have no answer beyond "kill those that want to kill you," is because you honestly know there is no non-genocidal solution. There was no non-genocidal solution to the 30 years war or WWII either. Tragedy happens.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-05-21 23:40||   2006-05-21 23:40|| Front Page Top

#99 Oh so the children thing bothers you, well you go tell that to them Beslan children who died because of muslims and the children they put into sex slave camps. Last post for me, but you better learn something it is a war of attrition and the muslims think they got the numbers on their side.
Posted by djohn66 2006-05-21 23:43||   2006-05-21 23:43|| Front Page Top

#100 Do I get a prize for posting an article with 100 comments? ;-)
Posted by ryuge 2006-05-21 23:46||   2006-05-21 23:46|| Front Page Top

#101 LOL, anon one. An innocent is beaten to the point of death by evil men bent on ethnic cleansing (which was genocide last time I checked the language in the treaties) and people get pissed and want to fight back on the same basis.

You remind me of Dukakis when he was asked what he would do if his wife was raped and replied with some formalistic, legalistic answer while showing no emotion. Do we have the right to genocide the genociders? This isn't a hypothetical. The genocide is going on right now in Sudan, Nigeria, Thailand, etc, ad infinitum. How do we protect these innocent ones? The freakin world court? The ICC? I'd laugh if I wasn't sick to my stomach.
Posted by 11A5S 2006-05-21 23:46||   2006-05-21 23:46|| Front Page Top

#102 I'd laugh if I wasn't sick to my stomach.

Same here.
Posted by Unereque Flinert3309 2006-05-21 23:58||   2006-05-21 23:58|| Front Page Top

#103 So if you want to dismantle the "us vs. them" mentality, you're going to have to come up with some solution to the war they are waging and intend to keep waging that is based on exactly that premise.

First we need to define "they". We can all agree that "they" are the clerics inciting hate. We can agree that those actively funding and providing charity fronts to funnel money. Heads of state that provide state resouces for the cause. It's a fricking army for heaven sake. They act like one, but we pretend that they are some sort of general blob of Muslim people that can't be touched unless they shoot first.

My solution? An organized effort to eliminate the leadership and funding arms of the army. Clerics who incite violence against the west - fair game. Determine whose in the army of Jihad and whose just a Muslim. Death Squads - laser targeted missles - bombing training camps. None of this touchy feely stuff where you get to set off an IED that kills our soldiers and then start shooting from a house with the expectation that the soldiers won't simply turn and obliterate the site that the shooting came from.

And what about the traitors here at home, enabling the whole process? They are the biggest problem we face. The members of our media? The CIA leaking information? Shall we the entire media or democratic party since they also incite?

In the old days, we didn't have the technology to do precision killings. Today we have the technology but not the will to do it the easy way. It's no longer necessary to wipe out entire cities to rid us from the leader of Iran.

I have to post this or lose it - it's midnight.
Posted by 2b 2006-05-22 00:03||   2006-05-22 00:03|| Front Page Top

14:50 Throlugum Thiger6848
00:03 2b
23:58 Unereque Flinert3309
23:49 anon1
23:46 11A5S
23:46 ryuge
23:43 djohn66
23:40 11A5S
23:36 Sluse Thrumble1233
23:35 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:25 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:25 john
23:19 DarthVader
23:13 Landrieu
23:10 DMFD
23:07 ed
23:07 djohn66
23:04 john
23:02 Slavirt Hupavins9373
23:00 Seafarious
22:59 CrazyFool
22:58 Galloways Outcropping
22:52 long hair republican
22:50 Glinter Spineque3412
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