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2005-08-24 Afghanistan/South Asia
Afghanistan: Osama bin Laden Reported Injured
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Posted by Grins Sluper5274 2005-08-24 10:03|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11142 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 who believes this fucker cooperated in an attack?
Posted by Thraing Hupoluper1864 2005-08-24 10:27||   2005-08-24 10:27|| Front Page Top

#2 He most likely passes out and fell down a mountain. They claim he was injured on an attack to keep up the mystique about him.
Posted by mmurray821 2005-08-24 10:31||   2005-08-24 10:31|| Front Page Top

#3 This doesn't make any sense. That's like GWB personally leading an attack on an Iraqi city. He's the Mahdi - they can't let him die.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 10:32|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 10:32|| Front Page Top

#4 Don't be miserly in praying...

I'll pray alright -- for sepsis.
Posted by Biff Wellington 2005-08-24 10:35||   2005-08-24 10:35|| Front Page Top

#5 "Servant of the Lord" aka UBL probably got stabbed in the leg when one of his concubine lads tried to make a swift getaway... poor little bugger..
Posted by Fun Dung Poo 2005-08-24 10:35||   2005-08-24 10:35|| Front Page Top

#6 Ok, who let Omar run his motorcycle in the compound again?
Posted by Mohammad 2005-08-24 10:39||   2005-08-24 10:39|| Front Page Top

#7 theenk thisn wuz em same nyoosite taht reported wun of zarkawees manee deths
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 10:39|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 10:39|| Front Page Top

#8 Still dead.
Posted by mojo">mojo  2005-08-24 10:41||   2005-08-24 10:41|| Front Page Top

#9 When danger reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Brave, brave, brave, brave Usama!
Posted by BH 2005-08-24 10:52||   2005-08-24 10:52|| Front Page Top

#10 It would be cool to see pictures of Osama using a walker.
Posted by mhw 2005-08-24 10:53||   2005-08-24 10:53|| Front Page Top

#11 May have injured himself falling off the latrine seat after green tea intoxication but he surely didn't take part in any combat.
Posted by MunkarKat 2005-08-24 10:58||   2005-08-24 10:58|| Front Page Top

#12 Wait a minute! I thought the Spanish pulled out of Iraq to placate Al Q? Did the demand after 3/11 insist they leave Afghanistan also, or are the Liars of Islam™ reneging on their earlier promise?

Do you suppose - could it be - that without any central control, there are no promises that can be kept? Some renegade Jihadi-Jerk can still demand more?

This would not bode well for the Islamonuts, if the rest of the world can figure this out, but then, I used to be an optimist.
Posted by Bobby 2005-08-24 10:58||   2005-08-24 10:58|| Front Page Top

#13 "Osama bin Laden has been wounded in Afghanistan, according to two different reports carried by various Islamic websites

They almost pulled one on me, only if they would have used three different reports. Whew! They were soooo close to convincing me.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 10:59||   2005-08-24 10:59|| Front Page Top

#14 My guess is he raped the wrong sheep.
Posted by macofromoc 2005-08-24 11:02||   2005-08-24 11:02|| Front Page Top

#15 Just a recruiting ad, folks. OBL is a spot on a Toro Boro cave floor.
Posted by GK 2005-08-24 11:17||   2005-08-24 11:17|| Front Page Top

#16 Get stable soon, Osama.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-08-24 11:19||   2005-08-24 11:19|| Front Page Top

#17 OBL is a pussy.

He doesn't get hurt or killed, he just gets others to do it.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 11:25||   2005-08-24 11:25|| Front Page Top

#18 I loved what one of the guys interviewed on "Inside 9/11" said. They showed some video of OBL walking around in Afghanistan carrying a radio with a Kalashnikov strapped on. This was promoted as his great leadership in attacks on the Russians. The guy said something like, "Yeah, 15 seconds of videotape showing him walking around. There's your 'great war hero.'"
Posted by growler 2005-08-24 11:31||   2005-08-24 11:31|| Front Page Top

#19 CA: OBL is a pussy. He doesn't get hurt or killed, he just gets others to do it.

No more than GWB is one. In terms of personal courage, you probably need to have a few stones to got toe-to-toe with Uncle Sam, since he can reach out and touch you practically anywhere in the world, whereas GWB is basically untouchable.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 12:20|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 12:20|| Front Page Top

#20 ZF,

That can't be you. You make some crazy statements, but calling GWB a pu*** is unlike you.

GWB maybe many things but he is not a pu***.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 13:12||   2005-08-24 13:12|| Front Page Top

#21 every now and then zf breaks down and shows his true colors.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-24 13:24||   2005-08-24 13:24|| Front Page Top

#22 Did ZF drink from the Cindy Sheehan kool-aid?

Keep in mind that OBL doesn't stare into the eyes of grieving parents who have been killed by thugs in the pursuit of freedom.

As pussy OBL says, "the main difference, you value live, we value death"

But, I don't see this pussy as a suicide bomber.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 13:37||   2005-08-24 13:37|| Front Page Top

#23 First I'd like to defend OBL against the 'pussy' charge (although he is evil). He did actually participate in combat subsequent to the Russian take over of Afghanistan. We don't know for sure just how much 'action' he saw but he did see some. He also must realize that the US is targetting him.

Now, I'm going to defend GWB (who I don't think is evil). GWB flew high performance jets during the Vietnam era and were it not for the fact that we were winding down our force levels at the time he became nearly combat worthy, he would have gone to Vietnam. He also realizes that many people want to kill him (probably there are at least 20 or 30 plots against his life at any given time). Finally, there is a thing called moral courage where you put your beliefs and your ideas on the line and take all the crap that every one of your opponents can dish out. This he does at least as well as any President during my lifetime.
Posted by mhw 2005-08-24 13:47||   2005-08-24 13:47|| Front Page Top

#24 MHW

Oh, yea, pussy OBL is a real "lead from the front" type.

As for real "action", prove it! Goats don't count.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 14:04||   2005-08-24 14:04|| Front Page Top

#25 PR: That can't be you. You make some crazy statements, but calling GWB a pu*** is unlike you. GWB maybe many things but he is not a pu***.

You're missing the point. I am not calling GWB (or any other leader) a coward. I am merely saying that OBL is no more a coward than GWB is - and neither of them is one. Wars are not about the personal courage of individual leaders - they are actions fought to achieve political ends. The bravest people in wars are typically those on the front lines - that is why they're professional soldiers.

Objectively, OBL is taking on way more risk than GWB. Think of how many ways we can get to him - and think of how many ways they can get to GWB. There's no contest.

It is silly to call our enemy cowardly when much of the time, he has to give up his life to touch us, and we can simply push a button and obliterate him. These is an elementary distinction. We use superior firepower not because we are cowardly, but because this isn't some kind of joust or friendly competition - those of our men who die don't get up again. The point of superior firepower is to get the job done at minimum cost to ourselves in terms of lives lost. Bottom line is that I wouldn't call the enemy cowardly - they fight a materially-superior enemy (us) at great risk to themselves and against great odds.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 14:11|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 14:11|| Front Page Top

#26 CA: MHW Oh, yea, pussy OBL is a real "lead from the front" type. As for real "action", prove it! Goats don't count.

No modern leader leads from the front, nor would we want him to. Lord Wellesley stood well back from the action during the Napoleonic Wars for one simple reason - if he had been killed, Napoleon would probably have united Europe in the 19th century. General Grant certainly was not on the front lines during the bloody battles of the Civil War. We wouldn't want GWB on the front lines either, because his political skills and (somewhat) conservative views are much more important than his skill as a combat infantryman.

It's the same for OBL - if he's killed, the jihadist cause gets the breath knocked out of it. The longer he stays alive, the bigger the impact will be when he is killed. Don't believe some of these commentators when they say that a thousand bin Ladens will spring up after he is dead. Great rebel leaders are rare, and their causes generally die with them, because they usually possess a unique blend of political and administrative skills that is hard for successors to duplicate.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 14:19|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 14:19|| Front Page Top

#27 Think of how many ways we can get to him - and think of how many ways they can get to GWB. There's no contest.

Someone almost got W with a grenade in...Georgia..Azerbaijan..or wherever the hell it was.

Bottom line is that I wouldn't call the enemy cowardly

They aren't cowardly when they go head to head with US troops. But how many times has that happened? Maybe one or two. Most of the time they use hit and run tactics, jumping across the border, spending most of the time HIDING amongst the civilian population. That's cowardice. You want to stop being a coward? Put on a uniform to distinguish yourself from the civilians.

ZF has taken a swig of the koolaid.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 14:26||   2005-08-24 14:26|| Front Page Top

#28 they usually possess a unique blend of political and administrative skills

In OBL's case, it has more to do with money than administrative skills. If he dies, who else knows the numbers to the Swiss bank accounts?
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 14:28||   2005-08-24 14:28|| Front Page Top

#29 I think Zhang Fe's point is that physical courage isn't really the issue here.... although I never got the impression that Osama bin Laden has much of that kind of courage. On the other hand, he has always lived much more parsimoneously than his income required, as part of his Leader of Warriors self-image. So what? Bin Laden simply substituted fawning and adoration for velvets, silks and air conditioning. And, he clearly believes himself important enough that his actions can compel his God to bend to his will and join the fight against bin Laden's enemies -- how frustrating and demeaning for him that Allah isn't properly obedient.

As for moral courage -- Bush clearly leads the pack, certainly amongst politicians in the world today, and I would also place him high on the list of American presidents historically. But that's just me... I'm silly that way.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-08-24 14:39||   2005-08-24 14:39|| Front Page Top

#30 Rafael: They aren't cowardly when they go head to head with US troops. But how many times has that happened? Maybe one or two. Most of the time they use hit and run tactics, jumping across the border, spending most of the time HIDING amongst the civilian population. That's cowardice. You want to stop being a coward? Put on a uniform to distinguish yourself from the civilians. ZF has taken a swig of the koolaid.

That makes no sense. Do we go up against them when they can see us? How many daylight raids do our boys do? What would our casualties be without close air support? I'm sure their guys would be happy to go head-to-head with our infantry if we forego our tanks, helicopter gunships, JDAM's, UAV's, artillery, Strykers and our unlimited ammunition, food supplies and water (thanks to our excellent logistics). Fact is that we spend a lot of money to give our boys an edge. And that edge is why it takes a lot of personal courage to fight the US military. We're not there to win points on courage - we are there to kill the enemy. This is why when our boys hit serious oppo, they call in artillery or air strikes instead of assaulting the position head-on. Think of our artillery and air strikes as intelligent mobile mines of unlimited range and power (within the confines of the battlefield) - after all, we can put tons of ordnance on a target at will, and there's plenty more where that came from.

They will seldom assault us head-on, because that would be as stupid as us attacking them head-on without air and artillery cover. Nonetheless, some of them do it anyway, and that is when you hear about high body counts and so on.

Bottom line, the way I look at it, anyone who's willing to put his life on the line day in and day out isn't cowardly. Are they ruthless? Yes. Are they our enemies? Yes. Do they deserve to be exterminated, perhaps with their entire families? Yes. But cowardly, they are not.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 14:42|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 14:42|| Front Page Top

#31 TW: I think Zhang Fe's point is that physical courage isn't really the issue here.... although I never got the impression that Osama bin Laden has much of that kind of courage.

OBL showed up in Afghanistan. For the duration. To fight the Soviets. The same Soviets who sowed mines that looked like toys. And carried out massacre after massacre. He should have stopped when he was ahead - he was a big hero in Saudi and his family was rich. But he chose to war against Uncle Sam. One thing I'll say is that it takes more personal courage to be a bin Laden than to be a GWB, or just about anyone other than bin Laden - it just goes with the territory. Taking on Uncle Sam is an inherently hazardous enterprise. (For one thing, your vacation options are severely constricted - "so which cave in Waziristan do you want to vacation this year").

I think some people are mistaking courage for virtue. Courage and virtue are two different things. The Soviets and the Nazis were pretty courageous in war. But they were not good people. The jihadis are, to me, brave people. But they are still our mortal enemies, and - short of a surrender - must be killed to the last man, and tortured to death, if necessary, to get life-saving information out of them.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 14:53|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 14:53|| Front Page Top

#32 ZF,

Your comments remind me of an entry from a Southern woman's diary (not Mary Chestnut, but I can't remember who at the moment) during the Civil War. She obviously lived near the Mississippi or Tennessee River and blasted the cowardly Yanks for using their nefarious armor-clad boats. Then she concluded by wondering why Confederate authorities did not have the foresight to field the very weapons she was just blasting!

Like you said, war's about winning. Period.
Posted by Dreadnought 2005-08-24 15:00||   2005-08-24 15:00|| Front Page Top

#33 ZF Nicely explained, I was won over by the last two posts.
Posted by Mctavish Mcpherson 2005-08-24 15:05||   2005-08-24 15:05|| Front Page Top

#34 If UBL is participating in combat it means that they are either reaally hurting for manpower, or that they need some promotional material to raise the level of support. Either one suggests that things aren't going well for them, but that's IF the report is true.
Posted by BH 2005-08-24 15:16||   2005-08-24 15:16|| Front Page Top

#35 BH: If UBL is participating in combat it means that they are either reaally hurting for manpower, or that they need some promotional material to raise the level of support. Either one suggests that things aren't going well for them, but that's IF the report is true.

That's crossed my mind recently, with the recent deaths of high-level Taliban officials from coalition raids. They must really be hurting to have the leadership personally taking charge. The principle's same as in chess - always protect your king.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 15:41|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 15:41|| Front Page Top

#36 But cowardly, they are not.

They are if they hide amongst civilians, and refuse to wear uniforms.

One thing I'll say is that it takes more personal courage to be a bin Laden than to be a GWB, or just about anyone other than bin Laden

Doesn't take much courage to be hiding in an area that is basically your own turf. He's surrounded by his own people. He's got more protection there in Afghanistan and Pakistan, than GWB has in the US.

He's a coward like any other (Saddam for instance) it's just that there hasn't been an opportunity yet to show him as one (like Saddam was shown to be a coward).
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 15:53||   2005-08-24 15:53|| Front Page Top

#37 R: They are if they hide amongst civilians, and refuse to wear uniforms.

That makes no sense - courage has to do with risking your life, not minimizing your few advantages. Hiding among civilians is what almost every rebel army has done throughout history. And as to wearing a uniform, that's just a silly notion - did the resistance movements that fought the Axis powers wear uniforms?

R: Doesn't take much courage to be hiding in an area that is basically your own turf. He's surrounded by his own people. He's got more protection there in Afghanistan and Pakistan, than GWB has in the US.

The whole world is GWB's turf. He can go pretty anywhere in the world he wants. You highlighted a single incident in Georgia, but that was an exceptional incident - GWB chose to appear in public beside the Georgian president in a friendly country. Can bin Laden appear in public at all before adoring crowds and the media, let alone beside Pervez Musharraf or Hamid Karzai? The entire world is a friendly environment for GWB. Bin Laden has to travel in disguise, and anywhere outside of the Pakistani province where he lives is hostile territory.

R: He's a coward like any other (Saddam for instance) it's just that there hasn't been an opportunity yet to show him as one (like Saddam was shown to be a coward).

Saddam's no coward. If he was, he wouldn't have invaded either Iran or Kuwait. Both of these things took significant courage in the sense that if he lost, there was a strong chance that he would be killed. In addition, he wasn't handed his position as dictator of Iraq - he fought his way to the top, by killing off his competition every step of the way. He started off with zero resources and managed to get his opposition before they got him. These are not the actions of a physical coward.

Why didn't Saddam fight to the death? Because it wasn't necessary to. In ancient times, getting captured meant getting tortured to death. It would have made sense, then, to fight to the death. (Note that even Vercingetorix did not fight to the death).

Why do American soldiers today fight to the death against jihadist enemies? Because they know that getting captured means they get tortured to death. Large numbers of American soldiers surrendered during WWII. Were they cowards? John McCain did not fight to the death. Does that make him a coward? If your situation is hopeless, and you know that the enemy doesn't take prisoners, you have to be a real coward not to fight to the death. But if he takes prisoners, you have to be really stupid not surrender. Cowardice doesn't come into play here.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 16:21|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 16:21|| Front Page Top

#38 ZF is correct. UBL, pig-humping piece of filth though he may be, is no coward. I wouldn't actually call him courageous, however, on account of his faith. It isn't courage to face death if you believe that the result of dying is to spend the rest of eternity wallowing in poonanny.
Posted by BH 2005-08-24 16:30||   2005-08-24 16:30|| Front Page Top

#39 ZF: One thing I'll say is that it takes more personal courage to be a bin Laden than to be a GWB, or just about anyone other than bin Laden

R: Doesn't take much courage to be hiding in an area that is basically your own turf. He's surrounded by his own people. He's got more protection there in Afghanistan and Pakistan, than GWB has in the US.

Apart from bin Laden being a hunted fugitive today, there is that little matter I mentioned a moment ago, about bin Laden showing up in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. This isn't like GWB showing up in Vietnam to fight as an American infantryman - it's like GWB showing up in Vietnam to fight on the Vietcong's side. Like the Vietcong, the resistance fighters in Afghanistan took *huge* casualties - an estimated 1m died. The phrase "life expectancy of a fruit fly" does come to mind.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 16:34|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 16:34|| Front Page Top

#40 did the resistance movements that fought the Axis powers wear uniforms?

The ones that were organized certainly at the very least separated themselves from the civilian population. The point is, sporting an RPG in battle, and then using civilians for cover and protection after the battle is over, is not bravery. You would not find resistance movements in WW2 doing this.

Saddam's no coward

Then we have a different definition of cowardice. He RAN. He HID. As the supreme commander, he did not stand up for his actions. In fact, he was AFRAID of what the Americans would do to him. That is cowardice.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 16:40||   2005-08-24 16:40|| Front Page Top

#41 BH: I wouldn't actually call him courageous, however, on account of his faith. It isn't courage to face death if you believe that the result of dying is to spend the rest of eternity wallowing in poonanny.

A lot (probably most) of our boys believe that when they die, they'll go to heaven. I wouldn't say they're less courageous for doing so. Religious or not, every man has to deal with the the possibility of impending death on his own.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 16:41|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 16:41|| Front Page Top

#42 ZF,

You are making the wrong agrument. You say that OBL is not a coward because he chose to fight against the US. Your posts are becoming less and less with quality because of your obsession with quanity. Shut down the factory for a while and come out with some quality product.

I say that he is a coward because he and higher up lieutenants preaches to all his followers to die for Allah. But, when given the chance to surrender after being surrounded by the US military, they always give up rather than die for their cause.

I seen it time and time again. Not only are OBL and his higher up lieutenants cowards, they are hypocrites, selfish, and Muslim apostates. Dick Durbin just really signed his and (your brave) OBL's death sentence. Thanks to Durbin, OBL won't even be given a chance go give up. But, if given a chance he would rather give up than die for their cause. Guaranteed and you can take it to the bank.

If you want me to take away the label of coward, hypocrite, selfish, and Muslim apostate then OBL and his lieutenants need practice what they preach to their followers. A TRUE leader practices what he preaches.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 16:45||   2005-08-24 16:45|| Front Page Top

#43 the resistance fighters in Afghanistan took *huge* casualties

So how does that make OBL courageous? He was a spiritual guide, with some experience in engineering, and bundles of cash. What evidence is there of his bravery? The fact that he started a war with the Soviets? Big deal. He's a runner. He runs all over the place, and not for tactical reasons. Had they pinned him down he would have bravely escaped to Pakistan.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 16:52||   2005-08-24 16:52|| Front Page Top

#44 the resistance fighters in Afghanistan took *huge* casualties

So how does that make OBL courageous? He was a spiritual guide, with some experience in engineering, and bundles of cash. What evidence is there of his bravery? The fact that he started a war with the Soviets? Big deal. He's a runner. He runs all over the place, and not for tactical reasons. Had they pinned him down he would have bravely escaped to Pakistan.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 16:52||   2005-08-24 16:52|| Front Page Top

#45 R: The ones that were organized certainly at the very least separated themselves from the civilian population. The point is, sporting an RPG in battle, and then using civilians for cover and protection after the battle is over, is not bravery. You would not find resistance movements in WW2 doing this.

No offense - but that is the complete opposite of what happened. Resistance movements in civilian clothing assassinated Axis officials and soldiers and hid among civilians, not because they were cowardly, but because facing the massed combat power of the Axis armies would have been a waste of their lives and ultimately futile. Risking death against superior weaponry and firepower (heck - risking death at all) is bravery - limiting your few advantages to seek a joust with a heavily-armed opponent is stupidity, not bravery - it's like taking on a rattlesnake with your bare hands.

R: Then we have a different definition of cowardice. He RAN. He HID. As the supreme commander, he did not stand up for his actions. In fact, he was AFRAID of what the Americans would do to him. That is cowardice.

That, again, makes no sense. If a coalition of Muslim armies invades the US, I would expect GWB to run. And hide. And organize the resistance from where he is. His job is not to get killed - it is to serve as the rallying symbol for the American resistance - to tell us why we fight. As to Saddam being afraid of what Uncle Sam would do - of course - he probably expected to be tortured. Heck - McCain was afraid of being tortured.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 16:52|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 16:52|| Front Page Top

#46 sadams a coward. ooday an koosay wernt. they fawt to teh deth.
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 16:54|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 16:54|| Front Page Top

#47 PR: I say that he is a coward because he and higher up lieutenants preaches to all his followers to die for Allah. But, when given the chance to surrender after being surrounded by the US military, they always give up rather than die for their cause.

The reason they give up is not because they are cowardly, but because they can go through a prison term and live to fight another day, when they are released. They understand - more than the liberal media do - that dead jihadis aren't martyrs that invigorate the cause, they are just dead. Remember - their mission isn't to get killed - it is to kill the infidel and impose Islam upon the unbelievers.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 16:59|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 16:59|| Front Page Top

#48 m: sadams a coward. ooday an koosay wernt. they fawt to teh deth.

Saddam's son's were young and stupid. Tens of thousands of American troops surrendered during WWII. None of them were cowards, either.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:01|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:01|| Front Page Top

#49 ZF,

"Remember - their mission isn't to get killed"

Then don't preach it. They are cowards.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 17:05||   2005-08-24 17:05|| Front Page Top

#50 but that is the complete opposite of what happened.

Not in most cases. Resistance movements in Poland hid in the forests and wore uniforms. They were certainly helped by civilians, but these were individuals not involved in the fight.

Jihadis in Afghanistan are certainly organized well enough to separate themselves from the population. But they don't, they are cowards.

If a coalition of Muslim armies invades the US, I would expect GWB to run.

Then GWB would have been a coward. A coward too, can organize resistance. Faced with exactly the same circumstances that Saddam was in, I would expect to GWB to surrender. At that point, he would not be essential to conduct resistance. Saddam is in jail. Has resistance decreased in Iraq?
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:08||   2005-08-24 17:08|| Front Page Top

#51 ZF --

OBL was not in the fight in Afganistan with Russia. He was being the pussy he is by sitting it out on the sidelines. He couldn't win a fight with any one of his four wives.

The toughest thing he has done is write a few checks to have others blow themselves up and intentionally kill innocent children and women.

OBL = purrrrr
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 17:10||   2005-08-24 17:10|| Front Page Top

#52 Tens of thousands of American troops surrendered during WWII. None of them were cowards, either.

American troops did not hide when they surrendered. They did not throw away their uniforms. That was bravery. Jihadis, otoh, after the battle is over, melt away in the civilian population. That is cowardice.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:13||   2005-08-24 17:13|| Front Page Top

#53 PR: If you want me to take away the label of coward, hypocrite, selfish, and Muslim apostate then OBL and his lieutenants need practice what they preach to their followers. A TRUE leader practices what he preaches.

Again, this makes no sense. GWB exhorts the troops to fight the enemy, but he doesn't do so personally. And none of the troops expects him to. We exhort the troops to fight the enemy. But we don't do so personally. And the troops don't expect us to. Does that make GWB and us hypocrites and cowards?

OBL is the commander of the jihadist forces. His role is not to fight - it is to lead. As long as he is alive, the jihadist movement has hope. The moment he dies, the jihadish movement will, by and large, die with him. This is why he must stay alive.

The idea that "true leaders" do it themselves is false. In the modern era, true leaders do not expose themselves to physical danger - that is the face of modern warfare. Roosevelt, Churchill, Chiang Kai-shek, Mussolini, Hirohito, Hitler and Stalin - none of these war leaders were on the front lines during WWII.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:14|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:14|| Front Page Top

#54 PR: Then don't preach it. They are cowards.

They don't preach it. They preach dying, if necessary, to kill the infidel. They don't preach not surrendering. They specifically say that faked surrenders are to be applauded.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:15|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:15|| Front Page Top

#55 R: American troops did not hide when they surrendered. They did not throw away their uniforms. That was bravery. Jihadis, otoh, after the battle is over, melt away in the civilian population. That is cowardice.

Americans did throw away their uniforms and try to hide among sympathetic European civilians. Some went along with resistance operations. Others tried to get back behind allied lines. It was actually the braver ones who did this - since being out of uniform meant a summary execution as a spy. Being captured in uniform was actually a lot safer than hiding with the partisans. Rafael has a lot to learn about WWII.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:22|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:22|| Front Page Top

#56 Resistance movements in Poland hid in the forests

I used the wrong term, hid, lest I imply that they were cowards. They organized themselves in the forests, trained, and built their bases and held most of their supplies there. That is something of a different activity than simply hiding.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:25||   2005-08-24 17:25|| Front Page Top

#57 R: Then GWB would have been a coward. A coward too, can organize resistance. Faced with exactly the same circumstances that Saddam was in, I would expect to GWB to surrender. At that point, he would not be essential to conduct resistance. Saddam is in jail. Has resistance decreased in Iraq?

If Saddam was not in custody, the resistance would probably be stronger than it is today. Saddam was great at running a police state. And the skills needed to run a police state are not too different from the ones needed to run a guerrilla war. Two years into the Vietnam War, the Vietnamese communists were killing American troops at 3x the rate they were at the beginning. The Iraqi guerrillas have flatlined. They have lost control of town after town.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:26|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:26|| Front Page Top

#58 Americans did throw away their uniforms

Do you have any numbers on how many did this?
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:28||   2005-08-24 17:28|| Front Page Top

#59 I can't believe all the people that are piling on Zhang Fei, in my opinion the single most logical, knowledgeble poster this site has. Note that his posts have refrained in ad hominems while many of his opponents have.

Not taking sides necessarily, just expressing my disgust...
Posted by Raj 2005-08-24 17:31||   2005-08-24 17:31|| Front Page Top

#60 Saddam was great at running a police state.

He would have been a hindrance to the resistance. He was a significant figure whose energy was spent hiding and running, more than planning anything. He was useless. He was trying to save himself. He ran. He was a coward.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:33||   2005-08-24 17:33|| Front Page Top

#61 R: Do you have any numbers on how many did this?

Not a huge number, but significant enough for a routine operation (by partisans) to be set up to smuggle Americans back over to the Allied side. Being captured in uniform was safer; they would be put in POW camps that weren't ideal, but kept most POW's alive whereas soldiers not in uniform were summarily executed, and those who made it back got to fight until they were killed in battle. My point is that the uniform issue in WWII is not only a red herring, it doesn't have the significance Rafael thinks it has.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:35|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:35|| Front Page Top

#62 just expressing my disgust...

At what? So far the discussion seems civilized to me. Heated but civilized.

Earlier I said ZF took a swig of the koolaid...that seems tame by comparison. If ZF took offense, then I apologize :-)
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:36||   2005-08-24 17:36|| Front Page Top

#63 R: He would have been a hindrance to the resistance. He was a significant figure whose energy was spent hiding and running, more than planning anything. He was useless. He was trying to save himself. He ran. He was a coward.

That's simply not true. He had the books of the resistance on him when he was captured. Saddam has survived this long despite his internal enemies (and I'm talking about those among his ministers and generals who think they could do Saddam's job) because he knew how to run the repressive organs of the state like a well-oiled machine. Again - his job as the leader of an occupied country is to run and plan. Not stand up and get killed or captured. Read a few books about wartime leadership for countries that have been invaded and occupied. The leader's job is to run, stay alive, figure out what the resistance needs to do and try to outlast the invading force, not compete with Rambo for bragging rights.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 17:42|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 17:42|| Front Page Top

#64 Look, courage is not objectively a virtue. It is possible for a jihadi to be courageous, but he's still a pile of shit. A Nazi in WWII could be courageous in the line of duty, but he is still a pile of shit. Why you guys are arguing the comparative courage of their guys and our guys is beyond me - their guys, no matter how courageous, will always be pig-humping bags of dogshit. Can we just agree that UBL needs to die?
Posted by BH 2005-08-24 17:42||   2005-08-24 17:42|| Front Page Top

#65 So far the discussion seems civilized to me.

Well, that's cool, and I appreciate the civility in this thread, it's just that I view Zhang as an outstanding contributor to the site (as opposed to, say, most of my posts, which just goof on the subject at hand), and I'm just a bit bothered by people piling on him, that's all.
Posted by Raj 2005-08-24 17:44||   2005-08-24 17:44|| Front Page Top

#66 If ZF is getting piled on, how come he's winning this one?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-08-24 17:45||   2005-08-24 17:45|| Front Page Top

#67 Because he's competing with Rambo for bragging rights!
Posted by Raj 2005-08-24 17:50||   2005-08-24 17:50|| Front Page Top

#68 10,000 judges unemployed and we get Mrs. Davis?

plzzzz
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 17:50||   2005-08-24 17:50|| Front Page Top

#69 Saddam's options were extremely limited in Iraq. He would have been a figurehead only. He wasn't necessary for the resistance. The assertion that the resistance would have been stronger with him around, is wrong, in my opinion. No matter how great he was at running a police state, at the moment he was found he was useless. Most of his energy being spent evading coalition soldiers.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 17:52||   2005-08-24 17:52|| Front Page Top

#70 10,000 judges unemployed and we get Mrs. Davis?

Hey, pretty strong words...
Posted by Conrad Dobler 2005-08-24 17:53||   2005-08-24 17:53|| Front Page Top

#71 Roosevelt, Churchill, Chiang Kai-shek, Mussolini, Hirohito, Hitler and Stalin - none of these war leaders were on the front lines during WWII.

Those amongst the list who extrolled their followers to commit suicide (Hirochito in particular) for the shared cause of their leaders are themselves pussies, just as pussy OBL.

Anyone foolish enough to believe OBL did another other than use their radio over a 15 sec. video clip and write a few tough expense checks needs to check their facts and provide some proof -- none of yet is provided by ZF.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 17:56||   2005-08-24 17:56|| Front Page Top

#72 I meant those "strong words" in a nice way.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 17:58||   2005-08-24 17:58|| Front Page Top

#73 The word coward infers that someone faced danger but cowardice got the better of them, as for example Fed Kennedy, he was only interested in saving his miserable ass and was not about to risk his neck saving another human being in danger. Usama never faced danger, he was safely behind the scenes well out of harms way, plotting the assasination of any opposition to his rule, with operatives murdering in his name, and the money to do, the little spoiled shit, with his walkie talkie and 15 seconds of footage.
Posted by Ferd Burfle">Ferd Burfle  2005-08-24 18:01||   2005-08-24 18:01|| Front Page Top

#74 how come he's winning this one?

Yeah and if I don't get some help soon, I'm gonna make like a coward and run :-)

ZF and I differ on the normative aspects of the analysis. It's pointless, really, to argue about such things.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 18:03||   2005-08-24 18:03|| Front Page Top

#75 I come not to praise OBL but to scorn him.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 18:10||   2005-08-24 18:10|| Front Page Top

#76 It galls me. Osama Bin Laden could commit terrorist acts against the civilian populace of the world's remaining superpower with the full confidence that several of his siblings were within its complete power, but the worst that would be done to them is that they'd be put on an airplane and sent home.
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2005-08-24 18:20||   2005-08-24 18:20|| Front Page Top

#77 Call me when he's reported D-E-DDD DEAD.

Until then, *yawn*.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut  2005-08-24 18:20|| http://www.ariellestjohndesigns.com]">[http://www.ariellestjohndesigns.com]  2005-08-24 18:20|| Front Page Top

#78 Addendum: I do not suggest taking his siblings hostage. But he performs equivalent acts against others in the full security that the same won't happen to him. I think this makes him chickenshit.
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2005-08-24 18:27||   2005-08-24 18:27|| Front Page Top

#79 Oh, and also, what Barbara said.

(OTOH: If he weren't dead already, I suspect we'd see provably recent videotapes of someone besides Zawahiri every once in a while.)
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2005-08-24 18:28||   2005-08-24 18:28|| Front Page Top

#80 You are getting way of track. This thread is about OBL. Not Saddam or WWII. Lately, you're turning every thread about WWII. Saddam is not a religious fanatic. You are comparing apples and oranges and pears.

Stick to the subject please and provide some links. You're just going on and on. And, making less and less sense as you proceed. For example, look at your statement below.

"They don't preach it. They preach dying, if necessary, to kill the infidel."

According to you, they are brave because they ask their followers to die, if necessary, when murdering innocent people, without provacation in the name of Allah. By your insane logic, OBL followers are equivalent to the military under GWB. Smoke it brother. Smoke it.

Mrs. D.
There is no way in hell that ZF is winning this argument.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 18:35||   2005-08-24 18:35|| Front Page Top

#81 9/11 = actions of cowards, braggards, scum, bullies, lowlifes, punks...

How many brave men have slit the throats of Air Hostesses?

This was OBL's biggest, proudest achievement, and it's all as far from bravery as it's possible to be.
Posted by Bulldog 2005-08-24 19:04||   2005-08-24 19:04|| Front Page Top

#82 BD: 9/11 = actions of cowards, braggards, scum, bullies, lowlifes, punks... How many brave men have slit the throats of Air Hostesses? This was OBL's biggest, proudest achievement, and it's all as far from bravery as it's possible to be.

That makes them unsportsmanlike and unchivalrous, but it doesn't make them cowardly. Besides, they were 5 men armed with *boxcutters* against planefuls of passengers. They needed to get to the pilots quickly, before the passengers figured out what was happening. If they had been a little less assertive, Flight 93 could have happened to them. The fact is that they flew these planes to their doom. My feeling is that even a regular hijacking complete with dramatic scenes on the tarmac and Delta Force commandos would have been gutsy. But to deliberately do something that you know will result in your death - that takes guts.

The fact is that we need to kill these guys not because they are cowards or thugs - but because they are sworn to killing us. We kill because we don't want to die.*

* I'm paraphrasing what I thought was an excellent line from an elegiac Japanese movie - When the Last Sword is Drawn (Mibu Gishi Den) - about the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate (military dictatorship) and the Meiji Restoration (of imperial rule).
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 19:34|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 19:34|| Front Page Top

#83 But to deliberately do something that you know will result in your death - that takes guts

I understand your point, ZF, but disagree somewhat. I think you're projecting a very Western set of assumptions onto Arabs, whose culture is very different. (So too are the charges of 'cowardly', by the way.)

Intense (fanatical) religious belief isn't quite the same thing as courage.

Moreover, many of the suicide bombers are known to have used major narcotics prior to going off to kill themselves and others. Whether this was true of some of the 9/11 teams I don't know ... given the avionics and flight control systems on major airliners, it would have been possible to execute those crashes while at least somewhat numbed to pain and fear.
Posted by lotp 2005-08-24 19:49||   2005-08-24 19:49|| Front Page Top

#84 "We love death. Americans love life. That is the difference between us."
-OBL

I wouldn't call it guts - I don't really know what it is, other than insane, foolish, and hateful. People commit suicide everyday - and are branded cowards for it. Can't have it both ways. And they do it, customarily, in isolation - not in groups of brainwashed fellows who anticipate an eternity of forbidden fruits. IMHO, neither is displaying courage, instead I believe they are displaying trust that there will be relief, in the first case, and reward, in the second case.

So, I'd suggest that to compare members of the Cult of Death and Global Dominion to members of the Cult of Life and Freedom, in almost any manner other than being of the same species, is specious.

Just my take.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 20:08||   2005-08-24 20:08|| Front Page Top

#85 OBL: We love death. Americans love life. That is the difference between us.

OBL is saying that Muslims aren't afraid of death whereas Americans are. I don't see how that's particularly unique, as far as bragging goes. I think it's pretty clear that there's a limited supply of Muslims who are brave enough to go all the way. There are many verbal supporters, but few who would actually risk their lives. Still, I'm impressed with even the limited numbers.

How many Christians have gone on a crusade to free the oppressed Christians of the Moluccas (in Indonesia) or to aid the oppressed Christians of Nigeria? Muslims from all over the world are heading to Chechnya and Kashmir. You gotta admire this kind of persistence. These guys have more guts than brains.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 20:23|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 20:23|| Front Page Top

#86 "These guys have more guts than brains."

And I suggest they have neither - they have lifelong indoctrination in a belief.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 20:25||   2005-08-24 20:25|| Front Page Top

#87 Many Christian missionaries, priests and nuns have been truly martyred and murdered for their faith in Africa and elsewhere in the world and they haven't taken others with them as the price of dying for the Faith.

I suggest that ZF drop his insufferable "jihadis have courage" tact. It's a loser.
If AQ killers were so brave, they'd put on uniforms, get a little discipline and face us like proper men at arms, not by using these teenaged-type cherry bomb manoeuvres.
Posted by Stanley Livingstone">Stanley Livingstone  2005-08-24 20:36||   2005-08-24 20:36|| Front Page Top

#88 Bravery is to love life - and consciously give it up in defense of another. Once you've seen it, right in front of your face, no praise for a murderous fuckwit Islamonut tool merits mention.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 20:52||   2005-08-24 20:52|| Front Page Top

#89 SL: I suggest that ZF drop his insufferable "jihadis have courage" tact. It's a loser.
If AQ killers were so brave, they'd put on uniforms, get a little discipline and face us like proper men at arms, not by using these teenaged-type cherry bomb manoeuvres.

You mean our boys would face these guys, armed with identical equipment, like players on a football field? Neither our men nor these guys are fighting fair - they are there to kill each other - that's why we use artillery, JDAM's and gunships, among other things, and they use mines. We backshoot them by killing them at distances where they can't even see what hit them or at night - and they do the same to our guys by using mines. If they put on uniforms, would we promise not to use night-vision technology or JDAM's against them? How about disarming to their levels, since they don't have a multi-billion dollar procurement budget? Fact is, neither side is fighting fair, but I'd much rather have our equipment than their tactics. So would they, I suspect.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 20:54|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 20:54|| Front Page Top

#90 .com: Bravery is to love life - and consciously give it up in defense of another. Once you've seen it, right in front of your face, no praise for a murderous fuckwit Islamonut tool merits mention.

You mean a guy who wins the Medal of Honor by killing a hundred of the enemy during a one-man headlong charge is just a murderous tool? The platoon that prepares an ambush and then blows a bunch of the enemy away using Claymores are just murderous tools? How about an AC-130 pilot who opens up with his 105mm howitzer - is this guy just another murderous tool? What about an F-16 pilot with his JDAM?
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 21:00|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 21:00|| Front Page Top

#91 So would they, I suspect.

I suspect not. They would still use civilians for protection and cover, then show the bodies of their dead relatives on TV, proclaiming how evil the US is.
If they were really brave, they would accept the risks that distinguishing yourself from civilians brings with it. But they choose not to. Hence they are cowards.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 21:07||   2005-08-24 21:07|| Front Page Top

#92 .com: And I suggest they have neither - they have lifelong indoctrination in a belief.

Lots of Muslims get this indoctrination. Tens of millions of Muslims in Pakistan have attended madrasas, which are basically Islamic parochial schools. Perhaps tens of thousands head out to seek their appointment with destiny. These are the guys with guts. Indoctrination alone doesn't describe it - tens of millions of their classmates believe in it, but only tens of thousands show up.

The difference between one group of believers and another is guts. This is why roughly 50% of Muslims (500 or so million) support bin Laden but only a few tens of thousands have actually shown up to fight the good fight. They're *all* indoctrinated. But only a few have the guts to go for the gold.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 21:10|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 21:10|| Front Page Top

#93 What? What the FUCK are you talking about?

Lifelong indoctrination with no choices, no chances, no individualism allowed is not bravery - the jihadis are tools. It's the sole reason why I don't want to just nuke the lot of them off the planet - 99% had little or no choice.

Now, are you trying to argue a US citizen is a tool in an all-volunteer service? No different from the jihadis?

Your answer will tell me all I need to know.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 21:12||   2005-08-24 21:12|| Front Page Top

#94 Sheesh. Why don't you just hold the conversation with yourself. You type faster. *golf clap*
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 21:14||   2005-08-24 21:14|| Front Page Top

#95 ZF,

Are you telling everyone here that if you put jihadi's with no weapons and GI's with no weapons in an open field, that the brave jihadi's will win.

No JDAM, no night vision, no weapons. Just hand to hand.

Smoke it brother. Smoke it.
Posted by Poison Reverse 2005-08-24 21:21||   2005-08-24 21:21|| Front Page Top

#96 ZF, God told me that he chose me to cut your throat and then kill all people with Z in their name afterwards then y..then x...etc. he ordered me and told me I could kill all I want to, until he called me to sit next to him in heaven and then i could choose 72 eager beavers [no burkas].

I kill you and 10 ten thousand other innocent folks...Am I courageous or nutz!

Malignant Self Love
Messianic
Posted by Red Dog 2005-08-24 21:41||   2005-08-24 21:41|| Front Page Top

#97 OBL is a pussy.

Let me repeat. The toughest thing OBL has done is write fat checks. He did not fight the Ruskies in Afganistan with anything other than a pencil. He is a fu*ckin loser who talks big but has brainwashed Islamofascist underlings to die for a demented belief.

ZF - you appear to ignore providing any evidence that OBL has gotten his hands dirty other than writing checks and chasing goats.

OBL says they love death. Some would argue that OBL is personally loath to follow up on that statement. What a pussy.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 21:45||   2005-08-24 21:45|| Front Page Top

#98 OBL is a pussy.

Let me repeat. The toughest thing OBL has done is write fat checks. He did not fight the Ruskies in Afganistan with anything other than a pencil. He is a fu*ckin loser who talks big but has brainwashed Islamofascist underlings to die for a demented belief.

ZF - you appear to ignore providing any evidence that OBL has gotten his hands dirty other than writing checks and chasing goats.

OBL says they love death. Some would argue that OBL is personally loath to follow up on that statement. What a pussy.
Posted by Captain America 2005-08-24 21:45||   2005-08-24 21:45|| Front Page Top

#99 ZF - Y'know, your #90 not only was a conscious disingenuous attempt to muddy the water - egregiously misrepresenting what I said, but offensive enough in the asshat moral equivalency dept to truly piss me off.

You've spun this fucking thread into a dervish to cover for a half-baked brainfart claim. You don't know dick about guts or bravery or courage. If you did, if you had even the slightest inkling, you would've admitted you overstated your point long ago - and that would've been that. But nope - your ego wouldn't allow it. Since it's just werdz to you, it has no meaning. Just an exercise in verbiage. Funny, it's not to me.

I now believe you're not just occasionally excessively argumentative, but you're actually a fool. One of those people who gets all his miracles second-hand. Some important stuff in this world only comes from experience. You can't "get it" by Googling or connecting werdz together. And that's all you're doing - blowing werdz. Just werdz. You don't actually know fuck-all about it.

Go ahead and play it out. I've seen what I need.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 21:49||   2005-08-24 21:49|| Front Page Top

#100 ZF - twice in the last week or so I've seen an uncharacteristic (from the couple yrs you've commented) amount of "unbalanced" argument from you, differing from the "principles" you seemed to support before. WTF? Or did I misjudge you and your character, Rob't?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-08-24 21:54||   2005-08-24 21:54|| Front Page Top

#101 Whilst the death I faced was not at the hands of a rifleman, or suicide bomber but rather at the hands of a 13,000 ton freight train, I define courage as being afraid, but doing it anyways.

Lots of good discussion here - brain food. Eat it.
Posted by Bobby 2005-08-24 22:01||   2005-08-24 22:01|| Front Page Top

#102 Maybe the German language can provide a middle ground:

"cowardly" in German means "feige"
"Feige" is also used in the meaning of "heimtückisch", which in English is "dastardly".
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 22:51||   2005-08-24 22:51|| Front Page Top

#103 Bobby: Whilst the death I faced was not at the hands of a rifleman, or suicide bomber but rather at the hands of a 13,000 ton freight train, I define courage as being afraid, but doing it anyways.

If the jihadis were so thoroughly indoctrinated, they wouldn't be using drugs. They're afraid too. They use drugs because alcohol is explicitly forbidden to them. Our boys use alcohol. Same difference.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 22:55|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 22:55|| Front Page Top

#104 Wonderful news.
Trailing wife, I had to look up "parsimoneously"
I love this site I'm always picking up stuff, thanks
Posted by Jan 2005-08-24 22:56||   2005-08-24 22:56|| Front Page Top

#105 The other point I wanted to make was that we don't send our boys out in car bombs because we don't need to. If we needed to*, would they need drugs to get their courage up? Would their need for drugs make them cowards?

* Let's say Muslims somehow manage to launch a jihad that manages to conquer North America, and we're fighting a last-ditch guerrilla war against Muslim troops and hordes of Muslim settlers. If there's one thing we have no shortage of in this country, it's rustbuckets classic cars, many of which would be ideal for car bombs.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-24 23:02|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-24 23:02|| Front Page Top

#106 fase it! threds cumin to an end and ima win!

ooday an koosay wewre brave foolish yung rekless bastards!

but no cowards!

pa hussein shulda taken em lessen frum his yunger dumer sons an got his ass shot in teh spiderhole
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:04|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:04|| Front Page Top

#107 or anee othern hole fer that mater
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:06|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:06|| Front Page Top

#108 p.s.

good posts zf. ima always lern much frum yore posts. thanks alwayz yore contributees here. :)
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:07|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:07|| Front Page Top

#109 I'm troubled by ZF's attempt to draw a "moral equivalence" between US troops and terrorists/jihadis. I don't know if this was his intention but it comes out that way.

The discussion is too much about the supposed meanings of words and not enough about basic values.

And no, should the U.S. get occupied by jihadis, the last US freedom fighters would not blow up their own schools and children to get the enemy out.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 23:20||   2005-08-24 23:20|| Front Page Top

#110 this is round 2 of ZF's moral equivalence crusade. Disgusting
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-08-24 23:25||   2005-08-24 23:25|| Front Page Top

#111 doent be disgust frank!

thisn be em nuther boring blog ifn all jus agreed evrythin.

zf's a blessin heer. :)

a litle confrun....or sumthin....

diffrent pinions jus maken evreewun wizer.

leest thatn how ima looks at it
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:33|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:33|| Front Page Top

#112 don't even think about using our beautiful classic cars as car bombs!
Posted by Jan 2005-08-24 23:35||   2005-08-24 23:35|| Front Page Top

#113 ima always lern much frum yore posts

That's true. Before today I never would have thought of the 9/11 hijackers as brave jihadi warriors.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 23:38||   2005-08-24 23:38|| Front Page Top

#114 //Before today I never would have thought of the 9/11 hijackers as brave jihadi warriors.//

thawt theyz bowt em same. thawt thats wat they wuz.
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:40|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:40|| Front Page Top

#115 brave but evil
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:41|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:41|| Front Page Top

#116 gotta agree zf. they wernt cowards. asshats that deserven hell forever, but not cowards.
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:42|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:42|| Front Page Top

#117 sweet! ima kan type an shut purdy fats not. :)
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:43|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:43|| Front Page Top

#118 And no different than LTC Kurilla.

muck4doo, I hope you're loaded, cuz you desperately need to buy a clue.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 23:43||   2005-08-24 23:43|| Front Page Top

#119 M4D, that was sarcasm. They were cowardly sacks of shit. But then again, it seems I have a different definition of bravery/cowardice.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 23:44||   2005-08-24 23:44|| Front Page Top

#120 u-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e that anyone would think otherwise
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-24 23:46||   2005-08-24 23:46|| Front Page Top

#121 A murderer holed up in a school taking kids as hostages isn't suddenly brave just because hundred cops are out there to get him.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 23:49||   2005-08-24 23:49|| Front Page Top

#122 ima doent need em clue .com

im jus likerin see honest exchanje of ideers bro.

truth is yallz reely doent know how ima feelin teh hole sit.

but im liken to see diffrent pinions go by, and yore purdy dam good at doin it, but so is zf an others heer.

if yallz wewrnt, im wulda left long ago.

evreewun heer contributes.

cept boris of corse...
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:50|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:50|| Front Page Top

#123 Maybe but I still prefer this not to be Dail Kos BS
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 23:52||   2005-08-24 23:52|| Front Page Top

#124 no. ooday an koosay wernt cowrds
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:53|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:53|| Front Page Top

#125 Of course not. Raping 14yo girls doesn't qualify I guess.

Is there a full moon or what?
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 23:55||   2005-08-24 23:55|| Front Page Top

#126 doent ever cuse me of bein em kos followin piece of shit.

>:(
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:55|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:55|| Front Page Top

#127 muck4doo - Well, that clears up whatever questions I might've still had about you, too. You're pretty good at the equivalence thingy, yourself.

Some people get it without hitting the chuckhole, some don't. For those that don't, I guess they need for it to become personal - and painful - first.
Posted by .com 2005-08-24 23:56||   2005-08-24 23:56|| Front Page Top

#128 Not you mucky, but ZF's moral equivalence BS sounds like Daily Kos
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-24 23:56||   2005-08-24 23:56|| Front Page Top

#129 im mite chek owt an reed wat libs miten hafta say on any blog but never piece of shit kos!
Posted by muck4doo 2005-08-24 23:58|| http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]">[http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/]  2005-08-24 23:58|| Front Page Top

#130 .com, when a mother of a fallen true hero calls the thugs who killed her son "freedom fighters" there's something seriously wrong.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-25 00:01||   2005-08-25 00:01|| Front Page Top

#131 "doent ever cuse me of bein em kos followin piece of shit."

Excuse me? Do you realize what you just said?

You won't accept any equivalence between blogging here at RB and blogging with the Kos Kidz -- but you DO between, say, the brave al Zarqi and LTC Kurilla?

Right. There you have it. Pegged.
Posted by .com 2005-08-25 00:02||   2005-08-25 00:02|| Front Page Top

#132 TGA: I'm troubled by ZF's attempt to draw a "moral equivalence" between US troops and terrorists/jihadis. I don't know if this was his intention but it comes out that way.

My first point has nothing to do with morality. Courage certainly doesn't. What I have been saying here is this - one can be brave without being moral.

My second point is that it is silly to talk about the enemy being cowardly for conducting remote control attacks, because that's precisely what we do to them. Ever since slingshot was invented, man has strived for greater-and-greater standoff distances. We are now the kings of the standoff attack. Practical it is - heroic it isn't.

My third point is that it isn't a great idea to denigrate OBL's courage. He is braver that most men anywhere in the world. After some thought on his background, I understand why Michael Scheuer considers him an impressive person. There aren't a whole lot of *countries* that would take on Uncle Sam, let alone individuals. Out of nothing, he organized attacks that had killed hundreds of Americans even before 9/11. The bin Ladens are the Rockefellers of Saudi Arabia. OBL did not have to go to Afghanistan. Would Rockefeller have considered going to the Moluccas (in Indonesia) to free Christians from Muslim oppression? But that would be the equivalent of what OBL did in Afghanistan.

Other Arab (notably Palestinian) terrorist groups have targeted Uncle Sam. After the US went after them, they tended to simmer down. But bin Laden continues to go after American targets despite being targeted. He could probably get plastic surgery and disappear, just like Carlos the Jackal and other terrorists before him. But he hasn't backed off. I find his persistence in the face of difficult odds admirable. I guess my attitude towards him is not much different from the Duke of Wellington's view of the East India Company's opponents - gallant but doomed.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-25 00:17|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-25 00:17|| Front Page Top

#133 TGA: Not you mucky, but ZF's moral equivalence BS sounds like Daily Kos

The average terrorist has to be much braver than the average GI. It's a fact - I understand we kill something like ten of their guys for every one that we lose, and the terrorists who survive know it, in spite of the nonsense al Jazeera puts out about beleaguered GI's. This isn't moral equivalence - it's acknowledging that the side with inferior equipment and higher casualties needs a little more intestinal fortitude to keep fighting the good fight.
Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-08-25 00:34|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com]  2005-08-25 00:34|| Front Page Top

00:34 Zhang Fei
00:17 Zhang Fei
00:02 .com
00:01 True German Ally
23:59 Jan
23:58 muck4doo
23:56 True German Ally
23:56 .com
23:55 muck4doo
23:55 True German Ally
23:53 muck4doo
23:52 Jan
23:52 True German Ally
23:50 muck4doo
23:49 True German Ally
23:46 Rafael
23:44 Rafael
23:43 .com
23:43 muck4doo
23:42 muck4doo
23:41 muck4doo
23:40 muck4doo
23:38 Rafael
23:36 Pappy
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