Article

2004-05-15 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-15 10:35:13 AM|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [1733 views since 2007-05-07] Top

1 Have you got a link to the rest of that, ZF?

Posted by Dave D. 2004-05-15 11:10:17 AM|| 2004-05-15 11:10:17 AM|| Front Page Top

2 ...You know, I went through USAF basic training in the late 70s - and admittedly, what we call Basic the other services call a weekend pass - but we had TIs routinely threaten us with broken bones, jail, venomous reptiles, summary execution, and other charming thoughts, and I never once considered myself abused. Am I missing something here?...

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-05-15 12:54:53 PM|| 2004-05-15 12:54:53 PM|| Front Page Top

3 The whole thing makes me yawn. If I went to jail in the U.S., I would fully expect the same treatment, including the beatings and gang-rape. Not much different from Fraternity pledging and high-school hazing. F8cking pussies. Bring back Saddam and elect Kerry - I'm sick of this.

Posted by Anonymous4860 2004-05-15 1:34:41 PM|| 2004-05-15 1:34:41 PM|| Front Page Top

4 All of you are soo ignorant. First of all, these tortures are against the Geneva Convention. It's inhumane to treat prisoners like this. Also, if the U.S. is going to invade a country, they should at least learn about the culture that they're invading. In Islam, nakedness is a huge taboo. By having prisoners pose naked, it would naturally enrage not just the Muslim world, but also those that are trying to develop better relations with Iraq and the rest of the world. By torturing the Iraqi prisoners the way that they were tortured, it sets back all the work that the U.S. has done to try and better the relation between the U.S. and Iraq because the way that the Iraqis were tortured in Abu Ghraib is worse if not the same way that Sadaam Hussain tortured people when he was in power.

Posted by Samihah 2004-05-15 2:29:45 PM|| 2004-05-15 2:29:45 PM|| Front Page Top

5 Samihah, what's Islam's take on prisoner beheadings? Or prisoners' charcoled corpses hanging from bridges? I know it's not panties on the head, but over here we thought it a bit... much.

Posted by tu3031 2004-05-15 2:55:43 PM|| 2004-05-15 2:55:43 PM|| Front Page Top

6 Samihah: First of all, these tortures are against the Geneva Convention.

Actually, the Geneva Convention merely codifies what had been customary practice for a while. And one of the things it codifies is this - reciprocity. If the enemy ill-treats American prisoners (and I define torture and mutilation as ill-treatment), then the US is under no obligation to treat enemy prisoners well. In fact, being out of uniform, enemy prisoners are subject to summary execution. The US has stepped back from this as well. I think this is a mistake. It is time to take the gloves off.

Samihah: By torturing the Iraqi prisoners the way that they were tortured, it sets back all the work that the U.S. has done to try and better the relation between the U.S. and Iraq because the way that the Iraqis were tortured in Abu Ghraib is worse if not the same way that Sadaam Hussain tortured people when he was in power.

Let me get this straight - Muslims would have been less offended if the US had raped the captives' relatives and fed them into plastic shredders? Well, then - we need to get on with the program.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-15 3:07:00 PM|| 2004-05-15 3:07:00 PM|| Front Page Top

7 Samihah, I have a strong recommendation for you: you need to stop worrying about whether we are doing enough to avoid enraging Muslims, and start worrying about whether YOU are doing enough to avoid enraging US.

Time is running out, and our patience along with it.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-05-15 3:28:04 PM|| 2004-05-15 3:28:04 PM|| Front Page Top

8 "Samihah"--Bull!
Dave D. is right--the "Arab street" had better worry about not making the U.S. hate you!
The beheading of the American Jewish civilian Nick Berg for no reason whatsoever made any bad things we felt about the Abu Ghraib abuse pale in comparison to the RAGE we feel to kill and stop the Enemy (Radical Islamists) that we're already fighting.

It could be that our prison guards (and their commanders) have figured out that using lady soldiers to guard male chauvinist IslamoFacists and making them get naked was precisely the way to intimidate and subdue these killers without harming a hair on their heads!

Posted by Jen 2004-05-15 3:42:27 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-15 3:42:27 PM|| Front Page Top

9 Samihah, you're right. Everybody would have been better off if we had just shot them to begin with. That way no one would have been humiliated and Arab TV would have to look elsewhere for their soft homoerotic porn, maybe the Animal Channel episodes on goats.

Posted by RWV 2004-05-15 3:52:58 PM|| 2004-05-15 3:52:58 PM|| Front Page Top

10 Agree with Dave -- the question is not "why do they hate us?" but "why do they not fear us?" The only answer I can come up with is they haven't seen us mad yet.

Posted by virginian 2004-05-15 5:48:21 PM|| 2004-05-15 5:48:21 PM|| Front Page Top

11 "The only answer I can come up with is they haven't seen us mad yet."

No, they certainly haven't.

What Arabs in particular, and Muslims in general, don't seem to understand yet is that our efforts in Iraq amount to an experiment; and the outcome of that experiment will either support or refute the notion that the society which produced the 9/11 atrocity, as well as the long string of terrorist attacks in the 30 years leading up to it, can be rendered non-toxic by the introduction of liberal, consensual self-governance.

The outcome of that experiment, and the conclusions we reach from having conducted it, will be all-important in the event Islamic extremists manage to pull off another massive attack on U.S. soil: it very likely will determine whether the Islamic world survives that attack or not.

If Iraq quiets down and gets on with the business of developing a peaceful, prosperous, and liberal society-- and does it RFN-- we would be encouraged to respond to some future terrorist attack by redoubling our efforts and sowing the seeds of democracy in the next problem area, in hopes of getting similar results and further reducing the threat.

But if Iraq descends into an incurable cesspit of theocratic extremism, inter-tribal warfare, or warlordism despite our most strenuous efforts, we won't ever again be tempted to undertake the task of reforming a pathological society; we'll just obliterate it.

As I understand it, we actually came close to using tactical nuclear weapons on bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan in response to 9/11; I shudder to think what we would have done if Flight 93 had not gone down at Shanksville, PA, but had proceeded on to a successful hit on its target in Washington, DC.

If I were an intelligent, clear-thinking Muslim, I'd pray five times a day to Allah for two things: that the United States succeed in Iraq, and that there be no more terrorist strikes on American soil.

I'd pray for those things very, VERY fervently.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-05-15 6:32:48 PM|| 2004-05-15 6:32:48 PM|| Front Page Top

12 Dave, hon, RFN=Right F*cking Now?
Otherwise, great rant!

Posted by Jen 2004-05-15 6:34:29 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-15 6:34:29 PM|| Front Page Top

13 Samihah would do well to reflect on what a great democracy does when it gets angry, really, really, angry.

Hiroshima.
Nagasaki.
Tokyo.
Dresden.
Hamburg.
Aachen.

Doubtless there are more examples. These will do.

Samihah, consider carefully the anger of the 'American Street.'

Posted by Steve White 2004-05-15 6:56:55 PM|| 2004-05-15 6:56:55 PM|| Front Page Top

19:28 Jen
19:12 Anonymous5653
02:59 Anonymous4908
08:37 Shipman
04:31 Jen
03:24 borgboy
02:46 WUZZALIB
01:43 Jen
01:26 rex
00:44 Mike Sylwester
00:28 Mike Sylwester
00:26 Mike Sylwester
00:21 Mark Espinola
00:16 RWV
00:14 Mark Espinola
23:59 Faisal the Goyem
23:48 Faisal the Goyem
23:45 Mike Sylwester
23:43 Mike Sylwester
23:21 rex
23:20 Alaska Paul
23:18 Alaska Paul
23:12 Alaska Paul
23:09 11A5S
Merry-Go-Blog