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2003-12-16 Europe
Cardinal Says U.S. Treated Saddam 'Like a Cow'
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Posted by Fred Pruitt 2003-12-16 11:10|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 As a Roman Catholic I believe he should STFU.
A sense of compassion? How about outrage and anger? Does the phrase: "Crimes against humanity" mean anything to you? Damn
Posted by Frank G  2003-12-16 11:13:56 AM||   2003-12-16 11:13:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 RC in the house here too. Cardinal Renato Martino is head of the Peace and Justice department because of his views. No surprise that he feels the way he does. But I do think the Cardinal's assessment of the treatment is off base. What I saw was a man getting a medical exam not torture.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2003-12-16 11:26:00 AM||   2003-12-16 11:26:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Amazing how everyone is in a hurry to protect Saddam, but no one could work up any effort to protect the Kurds.
Posted by Frank Martin  2003-12-16 11:27:09 AM||   2003-12-16 11:27:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Cardinal Martino only recently returned to the Vatican after serving sixteen years as Vatican observer to the UN. It would seem that the good Cardinal has picked up the secular habit of American Democrat politicians of speaking before thinking. He perhaps would benefit from a couple of years of silent contemplation.
Posted by Tancred 2003-12-16 11:34:08 AM||   2003-12-16 11:34:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Nice barnyard metaphor,Cardinal,would you have felt better if his capturers had treated Saddam like the cowardly pig that he is? Save your pity for his victims, Cardinal.
Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-12-16 11:39:08 AM||   2003-12-16 11:39:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 This RC says "Amen" to that, Tancred.
Posted by Tom 2003-12-16 11:40:31 AM||   2003-12-16 11:40:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 One more recovering RC here. It's hard for me to accept any views from people that live in one of the largest palaces in the world. You're supposed to get your reward in heaven. . .
Posted by Doc8404 2003-12-16 12:03:51 PM||   2003-12-16 12:03:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Chalk me in as another former alter boyon this blog... I have several pithy comments that I will keep to myself out of fear of spending even more time in Purgatory, but I can say that I guess this means the Vatican isn't included on the Pentagons bid list either?
Posted by Capsu78 2003-12-16 12:07:00 PM||   2003-12-16 12:07:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Wow, I to am a recovering Catholic. For me personally I have lost respect for the church. After all, they are no better than our own left. The protect pedophiles and condemn those fighting evil. The church has lost its way. Sad really. I know many good priests but they all share the taint of the church.
Posted by Swiggles 2003-12-16 12:40:03 PM||   2003-12-16 12:40:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Maybe he'd prefer it if we treated Saddam like a sheep, just like all those young men abused by predatory priests.

Just another example of Catholicism pitying the poor abused autocrat.
Posted by Hiryu 2003-12-16 12:46:44 PM||   2003-12-16 12:46:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 As an exRC, I am truly disheartened at the Church. When they came out a month ago with the bloody history of islam in europe, I had hope there may be a realization of the true nature of what is happening in the world. However they continue to ignore the evil of the big picture, and focus on politically correct issues. As Swiggles noted, they protect pedophiles, show concern for a murderous dictator and opposed the liberation of 25 million tormented souls.
What would Jesus do? I'm not God, but you can bet the farm he wouldn't go approve of this asshat.
Posted by johnCV 2003-12-16 1:28:49 PM||   2003-12-16 1:28:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Probably still pissed at Lauren Hill.
Posted by Anonymous2U 2003-12-16 1:30:10 PM||   2003-12-16 1:30:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Not a Catholic here, but firmly believe the Catholic Church has spent too much time playing Buddha, contemplating their navel instead of standing up to the real, present danger of evil in this world. The decline in Christianity is matched by a decline in civil behavior and in respect for one another. That, by the way, is also a failure of Islam, so it's not just Christianity. We need to return to our religious roots - all the way back to the Judeao-Christian roots in the Books of Moses, and get rid of the crap that's been painted and papered over to cover up the "hard" parts. In the meantime, the good Cardinal Martino needs to stick a plug in it. The capture of Saddam Hussein was a military operation, not a Red Cross "disaster".
Posted by Old Patriot  2003-12-16 2:46:38 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm]  2003-12-16 2:46:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm a lifelong Prostestant, but you know, I thought we treated Saddam pretty great, all things considered!
He was alive (!) and well and he got what every recruit, inmate, or even hospital admittee does back home, a medical checkup, which I think was considerate and kind of us!
After all, gum disease and lice can cause real pain.
If he looked bovine, that says more about Saddam than it does the US military.
With all their squealing, you have to wonder if the Vatican doesn't have more vested in this deal than just "humanitarian (and dare I add Christian?) values."
Rome has been the apologist for Muslim extremism many times and if you don't believe me, read Oriana Fallaci on the subject.
I long for the return of an uncompromised Vatican that calls for and blesses Crusades!
There, I used the "c-word."
Posted by Jennie Taliaferro  2003-12-16 3:20:18 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2003-12-16 3:20:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 No surprise there are a few of us RC's here on Rantburg. I had 12 years of Jesuit education myself. It taught me to think logically, seek the truth and apply morality to the extent that an imperfect man can in an imperfect world.

While this approach takes me to Rantburg everyday, it has alienated me from a Church that has been weak on perverts and dictators and refuses to use its still considerable power to thwart islamism.

I predict that, when the time comes to elect a new Pope, there will be immense pressure from the various 3rd world cardinals (many of whom come from countries where violent manifestations of Islam or more than theoretical issues) to clean up this nonsense. If not, this will be the last straw that leads to another schism. I already know what side I'll be on.
Posted by JAB 2003-12-16 3:41:44 PM||   2003-12-16 3:41:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Fellow Rantburging RCs, Where did you go to church and what’s with all the RC Bashing? My RC Parish is in a multi-ethnic community and we all deplored the way some priests were protected by some in the church. We DO NOT (as a group) hide/foster/condone the acts of some VILE priest and the actions by the church to protect them. If you quit the church because or what a FEW despicable priests did then maybe you need to question YOUR and not THE Faith. Cardinal Martino is representing HIS view as the head of the peace and justice department. He has NOT been accused of buggering young men or anything close to that! Please come back to earth.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2003-12-16 4:17:55 PM||   2003-12-16 4:17:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 [warning - I'm in full Rant mode here]

You will note that this Cardinal does not speak with the voice of the Church.

I beileve my Church needs to clean house. The Pope has become a puppet, run by the "elites" in Vatican City, the same ones that have betrayed the core of the Church, allowing things like Pagan cermeonies, etc in the name of "Ecuminical" sentiments. Nowhere in the Word does it say to water down the message so we can all get along.

In the words of Chirst: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet and turn and tear you to pieces" (MT-7:6)

Amny of them have lost sight of the fundamentals of the Church, its Magesterium, and its Sacrements - they have abandoned the fundamentals of the Nicean Creed we say every mass. They are more concerned with preserving the power of the Holy See than they are with its spirit.

We need someone to go in there and take a firehose and clear out the remnants of the "Revolution Theology" crowd, disempower those blinded by self-seeking goals (such as the stupid coddling of evildoers crap and accomodation of Islamists and other non-believers), and get the Church out of politics and back on the absolutes it was founded upon.

Yes, show compassion as Christ did, but also they must show some sense of moral outrage at the depths of depravity that their inaction would have allowed to continue. And remember that there are unbelievers and what the destiny of those unbelievers is: damnation. That also is what Christ taught: actions have consequences. The Vatican appears to have been very selective and abandoned many of the teachings.

Either you believe and try to live to the standards of the Church or you get out. Simple as that. And if the Vatican (as opposed to the Church) loses power, money and presitge, so be it. Its better to preserve out core than it is to water it down and make it lose all distinction.

The Vatican had best be more concerned with the board in their eye than the speck of dust in others.

We need a courageous man, not the Vatican elites, who manipulate the well-meaning but decrepit pope we have now.

I trust that God will help the Church right itself, as it did after the Protestant Reformation. It will take time and a coruageous man to step into the shoes of the fisherman.
Posted by OldSpook 2003-12-16 5:01:38 PM||   2003-12-16 5:01:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Sorry CS, but it's a PATTERN of problems with the Church of Rome. It's not that individual priests are bad...it's that the Church, as an organization protects them. That's just wrong. It's no that this Cardinal is representing his view, it's that the Church as an organization doesn't stand against dictators. He is a Cardinal, a 'Prince of the Church', his view in fact DOES represent the official view of the Church. Until the Church gains some new leaders with strong moral courage, I will continue to be disappointed and derisive. I also take exception to your line "...maybe you need to question YOUR and not THE Faith...", I don't know about you, but my Faith is in God and his Son. Not the minions of a senile Pontiff who doesn't run the Church anyways. An organization, like Catholicism, is defined by its leaders. Just like Islam is defined by its leaders....
Posted by Swiggles 2003-12-16 5:05:47 PM||   2003-12-16 5:05:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I've always been sceptical of religions and thier various denominations that claim"Our way is the only way"(Jehovah's Witness, Pentacostals, Mormons,Islam,yes and the Roman Catholic church,etc)I am a Born-agin Christian myself.I stopped attending church because of the bigotted,my way or no way attitudes I kept running into.One of the biggest problems I have with the RC is the belief that the Pope is inffalable and his edicts are to be adhered to wiyhout question.RC Cardinals have way to much power/influence over thier Priest and cogregations.

Read Revelations,St.Pauls(I think it was St.Paul) letters to the 7 churchs,God ain't none to happy with his Churches.
Posted by raptor  2003-12-16 5:53:46 PM||   2003-12-16 5:53:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 First, CS may be overreacting. Most RC's just want the church to live up to its ideals. I'm not leaving but like OS, want to push it to clean house before there is another schism.

Raptor is incorrect that we RC's believe the Pope is infallible. He is only infallible when speaking "ex cathedra" or, figuratively, from the chair of Peter. This is a once a century type deal not an everyday thing.

This Pope provided great leadership that helped us have a soft landing for the Soviet bloc. I am confident his successor will help us handle militant Islam but he'll have to clean house first. The Liberation Theology crowd that drove me nuts while we where winning the Cold War (with JPII's active help) is indeed the same element that has coddled dictators from Castro to Saddam.
Posted by JAB 2003-12-16 6:04:19 PM||   2003-12-16 6:04:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 If the Americans had treated Saddam as a cow they would have made hamburgers with him. They didn't.

Now seriously: how can this Pharisean dare to comment on pooooooooor Saddam who suffered no worse ordeal than being paraded on TV when he kept silence on the killings, the rapes, the plastic shredders, the gassings.

In the Gospel there is ONE sin who seemd unforgivable to Christ: "Woe to those who scandalize the little ones". Saddam did worse than that, he killed them. And this htpocritical bastard is shedding tears on him.
Posted by JFM  2003-12-16 6:08:05 PM||   2003-12-16 6:08:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Raptor

The Catholic church never pretended everything the Pope said was right. The doctrine of infability only extends to doctrinal matters, not to political or practical matters. I think the theory is that God will inspire Peter's successor. But I am not a theologian.
Posted by JFM  2003-12-16 6:17:38 PM||   2003-12-16 6:17:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 AMEN OLDSPOOK! Yes we need a Pope with vision and a voice, but John-Paul II is too frail to be that person at this time. Not that it's advertised, but the Church has made MANY changes to address what has been going wrong. The many people who profess to be RC would know this if they went to church once in a while.

Swiggles you lack of understanding of RC pain me since in your earlier rant you said that you "are a recovering RC and lost all respect for the Church." Nobody speaks for the Church EXCEPT the Pope. Yes they are Princes of the Church, but only over the area or activity they are in charge. While they are the Popes representatives, they do not (theologically) speak for the church. So I stand by my earlier statement that Cardinal Martino is representing HIS view as the head of the peace and justice department of the Vatican. It's kind of like Condi giving an opinion on National Security.

As far as faith goes that is not something I can tell you one way or the other. It's a simple question: Do you believe in the teachings of the Church? Yes men (and women) do despicable things in this world. Does that change the teaching of the Church? My answer is NO.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2003-12-16 6:19:36 PM||   2003-12-16 6:19:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Where's me Lobster Hat! Papists recovering and other are coming out of the woood work! To the walls!

There... that was fun. Relax breathe and thank your God thank you can tussle over some such minor ass details.
Posted by Shipman 2003-12-16 6:34:31 PM||   2003-12-16 6:34:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Shipman, these aren't minor ass details if this is your church - I'm heartened by all those speaking here from moral outrage. The answer is to work within the church to reform. The pedophile scandals are real and the church did wrong in covering up - don't let them!
Raptor, I don't think most christian sects subscribe to the "ours is the ONLY way" any more, I know the RC church dropped it long ago - the answer is to worship as you see fit and do good works, that's good enough in my book for heaven.

Our good Cardinal has obviously spent too much time among the moral heathens (the UN) and needs a 20 year sabbatical along with a vow of silence. He does speak for the Vatican, but not for me!
Posted by Frank G  2003-12-16 7:24:13 PM||   2003-12-16 7:24:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 To all, I suspend my moral outrage and ask to live in the community of the faithful.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2003-12-16 7:32:14 PM||   2003-12-16 7:32:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 My main problem with the church is they shut up when they ought to speak up and speak up when they ought to shut up.
Posted by tu3031 2003-12-16 8:22:39 PM||   2003-12-16 8:22:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 I'm RC as well, even belong to the KofC. Try to do good work for the community that's the best type of religion in my book no matter what your denomination is. I have my own issues w/organized religion and definitely issues w/my church passing around pedophilers. Time for a new pope and a back to basics theme imho.
Posted by Jarhead 2003-12-16 9:01:17 PM||   2003-12-16 9:01:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Not being RC (lapsed Lutheran married to a lapsed Jew) I refuse to grind an axe. Too many connections being made here. Unfortunately, Tolerance is too rarely a Christian virtue, except when displayed by other-thinking people.

1. RC's shouldn't have to feel self-conscious about pedophile priests unless they are also pedophiles themselves.

2. Similarly, RC's shouldn't have to feel self-conscious about an idiot remark by some Vatican diplomat who should have known better. The Vatican has produced some good diplomats, too. E. g., Angelo Roncalli (aka John XXIII.)

3. Long as religion has become topic, I was looking where to post a cute snippet. This as good as any:
...while the President’s opponents have made much sport of the idea that God called George Bush to the presidency, it’s becoming increasingy difficult to doubt that He wants Bush re-elected. -- David Frum

Posted by Glenn (not Reynolds) 2003-12-16 9:36:30 PM||   2003-12-16 9:36:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 oops. In my last change "increasingy" to "increasingy[sic]" Typo was in the original. mea non culpa.
Posted by Glenn (not Reynolds) 2003-12-16 9:41:25 PM||   2003-12-16 9:41:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 H.E. Mons. Martino, on October 22nd, 2001, said:

"In the midst of this current tragedy and threat to the Culture of Peace, forms of systematic terrorism should not be forgotten. In some cases it is almost institutionalized, possibly based on systems which utterly destroy the freedom and rights of individuals "guilty" of not bringing their thought into line with the triumphant ideology. Today these persons are unable to attract the attention and support of international public opinion and they must not be forgotten or abandoned." Source

Well, the Iraqi people have not been forgotten and (if Bush is re-elected) they will not be abandoned. So Mons. Martino, what is your problem?
Posted by Rafael 2003-12-16 10:39:08 PM||   2003-12-16 10:39:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I'm also RC, married to big-time RC. I'd like to see the church clean up its own house right now and not be distracted by the plight of fascist thugs elsewhere.

That said, it's a real shame that the US Army dentist was prodding Saddam with a tongue blade to inspect his teeth when he could have been extracting Saddam's teeth without anesthesia using a hammer, cut his tongue off with a rusty knife, smashed him in the face a few times and then hooked up his genitals to an electrical generator, followed by hanging him upside down and beating his soles with a rubber-hose sheathed iron bar.

Yep, what we did to Saddam was just brutal. My cardinal says so.
Posted by Steve White  2003-12-16 11:24:08 PM||   2003-12-16 11:24:08 PM|| Front Page Top

22:41 Anonymous4944
18:36 liberalhawk
00:13 CrazyFool
00:11 Old Patriot
23:56 CrazyFool
23:55 Old Patriot
23:46 Old Patriot
23:37 spiffo
23:34 alaskasoldier
23:24 Steve White
23:21 4thInfVet
23:15 4thInfVet
22:57 Glenn (not Reynolds)
22:49 Fred
22:41 4thInfVet
22:39 Rafael
22:33 Chuck
22:24 4thInfVet
22:21 Raj Reagan
22:18 Raj
22:10 Anonymous
21:41 Glenn (not Reynolds)
21:36 eyeyeye
21:36 Glenn (not Reynolds)
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