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2007-10-24 Iraq

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Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-24 10:41|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11130 views ] Top

#1 Turkey is defending itself here, the PKK is a terrorist organization, we need to let the Turks do what they must and stay out of it.

Posted by Spiny Gl 2511 2007-10-24 11:00|| 2007-10-24 11:00|| Front Page Top

#2 Again, no issue with that. Its the 2 armored divisions that ar pointed at Kirkuk that concern me.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-24 11:04|| 2007-10-24 11:04|| Front Page Top

#3 I'd be much happier to set a different precident. Have the US and Iraqi forces smash the PKK and turn over any big-wigs to the Turks.

The Turkish rhettoric lately makes this more difficult though.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-10-24 11:06|| 2007-10-24 11:06|| Front Page Top

#4 We always give the Turks way to much credit where credit is not due. My wager is that this is just the beginning. Beginning of what exactly, I'm not sure. I would like to be wrong, but... Turkey is always nipping at our heels to feel relevant and this is an important front in the war for a global caliphate.

I suspect that the plan is that we give them an opportunity to be good to their word [snicker] and then if they aren't, let them see what it feels like to take on the US Military.

Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-10-24 11:07|| 2007-10-24 11:07|| Front Page Top

#5 One last thought - just because we sit back and think, wow, it's really not in their interests to allow us a green light to turn our guns on them, nothing they have ever done would give us any reason to think that fact would enter into their decision making process.

Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-10-24 11:14|| 2007-10-24 11:14|| Front Page Top

#6 One has to ask why all this is happening now?
The PKK doesn't make a move without the say so of the Kurdish government in N Iraq. And they don't make a move without the say so of the US.
Is this a warning to Turkey, that in the event of a showdown with Iran, that they can't stand on the sidelines, as they will be drawn in too. In that event they will have stand with the Allies (unlike the invasion of Iraq)or end up on the other side and be dismembered as the Ottoman Empire was after WWI and will Iran.

Posted by tipper 2007-10-24 11:47|| 2007-10-24 11:47|| Front Page Top

#7 Tipper, i'm not sure the PKK listens to anyone now that the Soviets are gone. I think the Kurdish government gives them some cover because they have a soft spot for the group (Kurdish independence pulling on their hearstrings) but beyond that I don't think there are any formal connections. That cover is evaporating rapidly.

I think Turkey provoked this for three reasons. (1) The are pissed at the genocide stuff coming from the US Congress (2) The US has been talking about stopping terrorism but doing little about the PKK (3) The US is a bit stretched and looking to engage with Iran so we are more likely to comply.

The best result would be for the US/Iraqi forces to smash the PKK and to encourage migration of as many Kurds from Turkey into Iraq as possible (and Turkomen in the opposite direction).

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-10-24 12:14|| 2007-10-24 12:14|| Front Page Top

#8 A lot of the Kurdish support has been of the "Enemy of my Enemy" sort. The Peshmerga have gone after the PKK in the past, with a vengance. Probably that is what is needed again.

ANyway I hope this removes any Turkish impulses to drive deep into Iraq. What would help more is a US Ranger battalion set to do hunt and kill missions in the area, for the next 6 to 8 weeks (untilthe weather sets in). It halts the Turks, it concentrates on the PKK, and if we get the Peshmerga involve din cordoning things, it gets them set up to take advantage of disarrya in the PKK areas so they can extand and consolidate political power there.

Win-Win.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-24 12:34|| 2007-10-24 12:34|| Front Page Top

#9 Dunno if the Kurdish regional government has a soft spot for the PKK. It probably has a lot more to do with the hard currency cash raised by PKK fund-raising efforts. Heck, in 2004, the Dutch closed down a PKK training camp near Eindhoven. So, maybe a 20%-40% skim off the too buys a lot of blind eyes.

Posted by mrp 2007-10-24 13:04|| 2007-10-24 13:04|| Front Page Top

#10 I wouldn't be surprised if the PKK is being funded/riled up by the Russians or the Chinese at the moment. A row between the Turks and the US would play well into their plans and would somewhat distract the US from going after Iran if Iraq was invaded.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-10-24 13:22|| 2007-10-24 13:22|| Front Page Top

#11 I don't imagine we'll hear anything if the Rangers do get to play with the PKK idiots, just sudden quiet from that part of the world, and the occasional so-called work accident.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-10-24 13:55|| 2007-10-24 13:55|| Front Page Top

#12 Ring me up when they get as far south as Tikrit.

Posted by Besoeker 2007-10-24 13:58|| 2007-10-24 13:58|| Front Page Top

#13 Agree with RJS, the kurdish of N iraq can repopulate N iraq with Kurds from the region, this is good for all Kurds. The PKK is not interested in this outcome, they are just as bad as Alqueda. Cept their gun sights are trained on someone else. They have used tactics against civillians who have nothing to do with their cause. The US would be making a mistake to consider these guys useful. Sometimes you just cant make deals with bad guys, not even covert ones. The turks need to wipe these camps out, or their own government is saying go ahead and maim our population, we've got enough to withstand any onslaught. while this in fact may be true it is also the kind of thinking behind all despots, sacrifcing civillians is not an option. PKK has attacked turkish army regularly, the turks cant be expected to allow that, the PKK is not a bunch of good guys fighting for a noble cause, they themselves are despotic types that have proven they lack civility and respect for life.

its in the interest of all Kurds in the region to understand the bad apple, even if it comes from your own barrel.

Posted by Spiny Gl 2511 2007-10-24 14:08|| 2007-10-24 14:08|| Front Page Top

#14 when the Bush government made it's case for war, one of the pieces of evidence was how Saddam used chemical weapons on his "own" people who were, of course, the Kurds. Saddam is gone and now the Kurds have an opprotunity to become not only a real country but if we play it right could be allied with us. Now we sell 'em out because Turkey is in tight with the EU? Turkey has shown the world that we have no real power in Iraq and that we are willing to sell out what natural friends we might have had in the region. Typical, typical, typical. One of the microcosmic examples why nobody likes us or trusts us around the globe.

Posted by Jeasing Untervehr7270 2007-10-24 14:53|| 2007-10-24 14:53|| Front Page Top

#15 When you say; one of the pieces of evidence was how Saddam used chemical weapons on his "own" people"
Should have stopped right there, because Bush was right to oppose the despot saddam. Your intimating the Kurds are the PKK, they are not.

In my view any government run by a despot should be deposed by all moral people. There is no other reason for government than to protect innocent. Its why I oppose the UN and all government agency run to sustain hegemony over a population. Darfur should have been stopped long ago, as should all ethnic brutality carried out under any banner by any persons aligned to that purpose.

PKK lost its standing with me by undertaking oppoerations against innocent people. Governments run for political ends are corrupt, governments run for hegemonic control of resources are corrupt. Governments without standing in a liberty sense, are corrupt. Libertarians without moral conscious are temselves corrupt.

Bottom line for me, protect innocent people from movements and or governments alike.

Posted by Spiny Gl 2511 2007-10-24 15:33|| 2007-10-24 15:33|| Front Page Top

#16 I'll give the Turks credit for defending their border. That's more than some countries I can think of.

Posted by Abu Uluque6305 2007-10-24 15:44|| 2007-10-24 15:44|| Front Page Top

#17 Conventional Wisdom is always a dangerous thing because it is just a lie repeated often enough to become the truth.

The conventional wisdom is that the Turks are something other than backstabbing bandits. That's what they are. Deal with it.

Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-10-24 16:18|| 2007-10-24 16:18|| Front Page Top

#18 Ironically, Turkey could get the PKK wiped out and make money in the process if they would cozy up much more with the Kurdish government. Right now, they are already a major trading partner. Turkey could invite Iraq into a free trade federation that would make it worth everybody's while to take out the PKK.

It would also be one in the eye to the EU.

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-10-24 16:57|| 2007-10-24 16:57|| Front Page Top

#19 There is an old saying, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I would expand this to most Islamic nations.

If Turkey wanted to be a big power they should have been on the first flight to Washington Post 9/11 with a map of the renewed Ottoman Empire (yeah they could negotiate away Israel/Jordan and Kuwait to make the US happy). This could have easily been accomplished with US military followed by Turkish peacekeepers to hold the territory afterwards.

Instead they refused to play ball and now want to be spoilers because things aren't going their way. Unimaginative fools.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-10-24 17:29|| 2007-10-24 17:29|| Front Page Top

#20 With Anonymoose all the way on this one.

Posted by Drive by lurker 2007-10-24 19:15|| 2007-10-24 19:15|| Front Page Top

#21 Problem is Turkish nationlaistic pride - and the remnants of Kemalists policy, make the Turks want to keep the Kurds down, as inferiors, rahter than deal with them as equals.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-10-24 20:54|| 2007-10-24 20:54|| Front Page Top

#22 well said, rjschwartz. And Oldspook is right too. Too bad they never learned that pride always comes before a fall.

Posted by Unutle McGurque8861 2007-10-24 21:31|| 2007-10-24 21:31|| Front Page Top

#23 A question for Old Spook - I've seen the comments about Turkish armor and concerns about Kirkuk - but really - how far could they get if they tried that?

Before we even decided to get involved, what with air superiority and all, wouldn't we basically cordon off the playing field and let the locals/Iraqis/peshmerga/whomever defend themselves? Would this possibly be a unifying factor for Iraqi nationalism - we hear so much about Iranian nationalism over their bomb independent of the internal loathing of the mullahs.

Maybe we walk a fine line and make the non-kurd Iraqis decide whether they want to be a nation by exercising this basic right of internal defense.

Again - with no air support, extended and narrow supply lines, and stiff conventional defense - how far could the Turks go? Even if the rest of Iraq kisses the Kurds goodbye - is that such a bad thing in allowing us to then supply their independence fight? Heck - even the Greeks might thank us for making a point about how Nato would react to member's invasion of another state.

Posted by Chuckles Jaise7272 2007-10-24 22:43|| 2007-10-24 22:43|| Front Page Top

23:34 Sock Puppet of Doom
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