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2004-09-08 Iraq-Jordan
US concedes that insurgents control some Sunni Iraqi cities
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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-09-08 12:27:12 AM|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Note that the towns in this are the ones teh 4th Infantry Division was supposed to roll up coming in from Turkey.

We are still paying the price for Turkey's perfidy.

Turkey is going to get a knife it its back - France and Germany are preparing to deliver it.

After they do, if the Turks don't apologize and help us, then its time for us to return the knife-in-the-back favor to the Turks:

More money to the Kurdish seperatists there and in Iran - have them agitate to join Iraq.

And get the Armenians in the north funded again - let them get some payback for the Turkish Genocide.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-08 1:04:59 AM||   2004-09-08 1:04:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 And, by the way, look for more attacks in order to drive up the death tool, which the terrorists and Saddamists believe will help John Kerry.

The fact that they WANT John Kerry should speak volumes.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-08 1:07:04 AM||   2004-09-08 1:07:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 They are foolish if they think that more deaths will help Kerry. While it will firm up Kerry's grip on the Howard Dean base, it won't win over any independents. Quite the contrary.

With each terrorist act, they actually cement the concept in the ordinary American mind that we are at war with Jihad, rather than "freedom fighting".

Furthermore - while I understand the propaganda value in hyping the 1000 deaths....it actually reminds the non-frothing minds just how low the death toll really was, considering what was accomplished.

Kerry has already bagged the Dean vote and the "quamire" issue is falling flat with the average American.
Posted by B 2004-09-08 1:49:32 AM||   2004-09-08 1:49:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Turkey is going to get a knife it its back

Not before Thanksgiving....he-he
Posted by Capt America  2004-09-08 2:01:27 AM||   2004-09-08 2:01:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Did not click the link. OK, here is my guess: NYT.
Am I right?
Posted by Zarathustra  2004-09-08 2:22:36 AM||   2004-09-08 2:22:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Granted that Fallujah, Ramada, Samarra, etc. would have fewer terrorists if Turkey had allowed a northern front. However, even with 10% fewer Baathoterrorists and Islamoterrorists, the situation there would be much the same as it is now. The NYT article seems basically correct.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-08 8:14:54 AM||   2004-09-08 8:14:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 mhw, the only problem, as I see it, is PC. It's killing us. Without it, it would have been all cleared out Nov/Dec last year.

Cordon, remove civs, attack and exterminate. Rinse and repeat in the infected locations. That would be all to it. After that, the hearts and minds would follow as there would be little interference with rebuilding effort.
Posted by Zarathustra  2004-09-08 8:25:51 AM||   2004-09-08 8:25:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 zarathustra

I think you are basically correct. Our PC approach to war is to have mercy on the cruel ones. This ultimately leads to cruelty to the merciful ones.

The tactics you suggest are also reasonable; however, the scale of the cordoning, etc. is immense. It will take, unfortunately a lot of time and manpower and cost many lives.
Posted by mhw 2004-09-08 8:49:07 AM||   2004-09-08 8:49:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 OS, is there one other person in the Federal Government who sees things your way?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-08 9:04:43 AM||   2004-09-08 9:04:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 We STILL haven't batte-tested the MOAB yet, have we?
Posted by Dar  2004-09-08 9:26:22 AM||   2004-09-08 9:26:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Lots of them in the military and intelligence arease. None in State apparently.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-09-08 9:33:27 AM||   2004-09-08 9:33:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 If Colin can't fix that who can?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-08 9:36:02 AM||   2004-09-08 9:36:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 When in Pakistan/Afghanistan I was unpleasantly surprised to find that most State "diplomats" were unrepentant apologists for their "pet" programs and were quite willing to abrogate the USA to the secondary position in favor of the host nation. Total immersion in the local culture can be, and is too often taken to the extreme by our DoS partners.
Posted by RN  2004-09-08 9:51:24 AM||   2004-09-08 9:51:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 It's the inside-the-beltway disease.
Posted by B 2004-09-08 9:56:57 AM||   2004-09-08 9:56:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Mark Steyn wrote a while back that iffin' the Sunnis don't want to participate in the national political life, then they have that perfect right not to do so. But the Sunnis decision to refuse to participate should not stop the rest of the country from establishing a free market democratic system.

Let the Sunnis stew in their own juces. Let their supporters start to notice when the rest of the country hs money, food, services, and etc while they cling to Baathist ideology.

ESPN by satellite and cold beer are far more devastating weapons to Baathist socialism that a MOAB or an infantry battalion in this case.

Badanov
Commander
41st Armchair General Brigade,
I Monday Morning Quarterback Corps
Posted by badanov  2004-09-08 10:10:12 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-09-08 10:10:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 seems that the situation in Samarra (and i think also Baquba) is rather more fluid than the Myers statement indicates, though its probably wise to paint things a little worse than they are.

as for approaches, I see an interesting tradeoff. Go in now, with mainly US forces, or wait, allowing more attacks on Iraqi reconstruction, but then going in with predominantly Iraqi forces. I see arguments both ways. Waiting seems like a reasonable option. Hard to say without knowing the progress of training, which is under Maj Gen Petraeus.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-08 10:13:17 AM||   2004-09-08 10:13:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Ramadi, Falluja, Baquba and Samarra

MOAB, MOAB, MOAB and MOAB

Problem solved. I'm not worried about collateral damage or enraging the iraqi street anymore. Time to slam the door on these asshats.
Posted by spiffo 2004-09-08 1:27:31 PM||   2004-09-08 1:27:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 word today is that centcom and Allawi think they can turn Samarra - not a Fallujah deal but full access for US and Iraqi forces in return for reconstruction aid - tribal sheiks willing to play, 300 of 400 "insurgents" are unemployed who can be bought. Problem is 100 hard core, including 40 foreigners.

If that works Baquba should be doable as well.


Only Fallujah really needs the rough treatment. But Fallujah really needs it.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-08 2:09:26 PM||   2004-09-08 2:09:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Its funny to see how spiffo says to just MOAB them, problem solved. Well, if you don't care about collateral damage, then all MOABing the cities will do is create anti-American sentiment in the long run. This is not our goal. Unless it is. Then we have a problem. Knifing the backs of the Turks. If that's what our country is about, then I'm out of here, because our country will degenerate into nothingness.
Posted by GreatAmerica 2004-09-08 2:29:51 PM||   2004-09-08 2:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 This "story" is more disinformation and lies, trash-talking the war and President Bush's prosecution of it by the NYSlimes.
SSDD.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the 1st ID ("The Big Red One") can't keep the peace and maintain authority in Iraq any place, any time--including these Sunni cities.
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-09-08 2:37:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-09-08 2:37:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 GreatAmerica: Its funny to see how spiffo says to just MOAB them, problem solved. Well, [liberal crap truncated]

GreatAmerica

MOAB

another problem solved

don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, ok?
Posted by spiffo 2004-09-08 3:45:17 PM||   2004-09-08 3:45:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 greatam - in the midst of some excellent news gathering and insiteful analysis, theres a lot of well "ranting" that goes on here. Which is kinda logical, since the place is called Rantburg. One gets used to it, and learns to ignore the more egregious examples. Usually after a pointless flamewar or two, though.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-08 4:05:46 PM||   2004-09-08 4:05:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 GreatAmerica, and start remembering birthdays, it shows you know what day it is.
Posted by rhodesiafever  2004-09-08 4:24:55 PM||   2004-09-08 4:24:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 The problem with Allawi's attempts to wean the "moderates" away from the dead-enders is that they are unprotected within these cities. Allawi needs to get some elite troops to establish safe areas within each city, probably starting with Fallujah. I don't have a clue who these special forces might be, but they should be Muslim and not American. Or maybe bring in the Spetnaz units who lost guys at Beslan?

V
Commanding Officer
Special Guesswork Unit
42nd Armchair General Brigade
1st Monday Morning Qtrback Corps
Posted by V is for Victory 2004-09-08 5:40:54 PM||   2004-09-08 5:40:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 The other issue is that the "normal" folks in these towns are being fed a line that fighting the US and other coalition troops is the nationalist thing to do. Now I don't know how much real nationalism there is in Iraq, given that it is a predominantly tribla society, but this still strikes me as odd. If you truly had feelings of naitonalism wouldn't you want your country rebuilt and have a booming economy with jobs for all? Think of the amount of capital that would be flowing into Iraq right now if the security situation were calm. Think what that would mean for both the average joe and the leadership. Think what it would mean for the mullah's pocketbooks. Are these people intentionally stupid to pass up this opportunity? If so does that mean we are just killing the stupid ones and improving the Iraqi gene pool?
Posted by remote man 2004-09-08 7:11:31 PM||   2004-09-08 7:11:31 PM|| Front Page Top

13:11 UFO
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