Article

2006-08-26 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

IAF strike destroys Hamas member's house in Gaza

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Posted by Fred 2006-08-26 00:00|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Ding-dong...IAF calling.

Posted by tu3031 2006-08-26 00:16|| 2006-08-26 00:16|| Front Page Top

#2 I guess i can understand informing the innocents when the sh!t is about to hit the fan, but informing the owner of a house that was being used as an amory???? how could he not know what was going on?? i call the homeowner a combantant and should have been bounced along with the rest of the rubble.

Posted by USN,Ret 2006-08-26 00:35|| 2006-08-26 00:35|| Front Page Top

#3 Actually, all of the damage was caused when an IDF soldier standing in front of the house carelessly discarded a burning match.

Posted by Zenster 2006-08-26 00:43|| 2006-08-26 00:43|| Front Page Top

#4 Maybe the homeowner was warned because the Israelis believe that living in Gaza AND having to move back in with mom & dad is a punishment worse than death?

Posted by Scooter McGruder 2006-08-26 02:17|| 2006-08-26 02:17|| Front Page Top

#5 I always thought it was IAF Ground Attack target practice and catipillar D-9 replacement.

Posted by djohn66 2006-08-26 02:59|| 2006-08-26 02:59|| Front Page Top

#6 Perhaps they are operating under the notion that the terrorists will just be replaced, but the equipment etc. stored in the house is harder to come by. Besides, if you don't kill a terrorist, perhaps there won't be four more seething family members pop up to replace him.

Posted by gorb 2006-08-26 05:56|| 2006-08-26 05:56|| Front Page Top

#7 Besides, if you don't kill a terrorist, perhaps there won't be four more seething family members pop up to replace him.

Oh, do come on, not the old "killing terrorists just makes more terrorists" horseradish! I'd sooner wager that by leaving these ~~operatives~~ Palestinian scumbags alive they maintain just that much more pressure on the ever-dwindling food supplies and stock of unused ~~toilet paper~~ goats.

Posted by Zenster 2006-08-26 06:07|| 2006-08-26 06:07|| Front Page Top

#8 snuff em and the house. No mercy for the scumbags

I'm not in a compassionate mood this decade

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-26 07:35|| 2006-08-26 07:35|| Front Page Top

#9 Prank callers in Gaza have it so easy. You just dial some random number, say "This is Colonel Moishe from the IDF, we're dropping a bomb on your house in ten minutes," and hang up. Here in the US, the best we can do is pretend to be an irate pizza delivery guy.

Posted by WhiteCollarRedneck 2006-08-26 10:00|| 2006-08-26 10:00|| Front Page Top

#10 Scooter McGruder's thought makes sense... and the first part of gorb's. Not to mention Hamas and Fatah having to use up funds to rebuild so many houses in order to maintain loyalty amongst the peons. After all, it's easy enough for the discontented to call the IDF to turn someone in when squabbling with a neighbor or a cousin.

As for making more terrorists, between the PA education system, summer camp cum terrorist training facilities for the children, the media and mosques idolizing Jew killers, there's no need for outside intervention to motivate potential fodder.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-08-26 12:06|| 2006-08-26 12:06|| Front Page Top

#11 One reason hollow point / expanding bullets are used by many in law enforcement is that, in addition to not passing through the first person to wound a bystander, these bullets both stop an attacker quickly AND are less likely to kill them (don't penetrate to inner organs, depending on the ammo chosen).

If they weren't proscribed in the Geneva Conventions for battlefield use, they would produce so many wounded that an army would flounder under the burden of caring for them. And for any civilians hit, too, of course.

Burdening an enemy with wounded to care for is an old, old military tactic.

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 12:48|| 2006-08-26 12:48|| Front Page Top

#12 Burdening an enemy with wounded to care for is an old, old military tactic.

Isn't it the primary reason we still use the 5.56 mm cartridge? Well, that and inertia.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-08-26 13:06|| 2006-08-26 13:06|| Front Page Top

#13 I'm not in a compassionate mood this decade

You've changed Frink.

Posted by Aztec Babe from the 13th Grade 2006-08-26 13:59|| 2006-08-26 13:59|| Front Page Top

#14 wounded
In that case, cluster bomb the area.

Posted by ed 2006-08-26 14:32|| 2006-08-26 14:32|| Front Page Top

#15 #11...less likely to kill them.

Actually, you're far more likely to survive a gunshot from a fully jacket round than a hollow point or expanding round.

The main reason for using them (hollow points) is to prevent over penetration, and to kill the target. A hollow point/expanding round dumps all its kinetic energy and creates massive trauma and in the case of hollow points multiple wound paths from round fragmentation.

Posted by Texas Redneck 2006-08-26 14:43|| 2006-08-26 14:43|| Front Page Top

#16 I guess it depends on the caliber and load.

I shoot 9mm for most purposes, but I'm by no means an expert on any of this. So when I wanted to keep some top quality defense ammo handy, I went looking for advice.

Massad Ayoob summarizes police reports to the effect that 9mm 115 or 124 grain high pressure jacketed hollow points will stop the target quite reliably without, in many cases, killing him, whereas there are many instances of attackers taking multiple jacketed, ultimately fatal rounds without going down right away.

Based on his recommendation I now keep a small amount of Cor-Bon 115 gr +P JHP for my Sig P229. This round has high kinetic energy (1317 fps), which is transferred to the attacker, but it also penetrates less than other 9mm parabellum jacketed hollow points -- in some cases, a LOT less -- according to the Firearms Tactical Institute. If reports I've been reading are correct, that has translated into serious stopping power with fewer deaths from a single round.

So I guess I had my caliber and round of choice in mind when I made that earlier comment ...

I'll see if I can find a link to the Ayoob article online.

But in any case either can kill someone under the right conditions.

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 14:50|| 2006-08-26 14:50|| Front Page Top

#17 Ms lotp, for a nice archive of Ayoob articles (though mostly stories, not factual ones), see here. Very interesting background material, even from a total outsider to this topic like me
Still, I hope there won't be flamewars here about the Facklerites "slow and heavy controlled expansion" vs the Marshall/Sanow "light and fast rapid expansion"... ;-)

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-08-26 15:03|| 2006-08-26 15:03|| Front Page Top

#18 Not from me. ;-)

I'm just a girl from the farm country who feels a bit more secure knowing she can defend herself if she needs to. There are many, many people a lot more knowledgeable than I about all this stuff including, I'm sure, some Rantburg regulars.

I just buy 'em, load 'em and shoot 'em. Paper targets everywhere tremble in fear when I fire.

Occasionally, if I get really out of practice, so do the other people at the range. LOL

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 15:04|| 2006-08-26 15:04|| Front Page Top

#19 Aztec babe? SDSU? LOL

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-26 15:43|| 2006-08-26 15:43|| Front Page Top

#20 I'll defer to others more knowledgable, but I always thought jacketed hollow points - I have a 44 mag - created an overpressure head in front, clean in and big out. I understand fragmentation points are to stop the big out back, but....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-26 16:04|| 2006-08-26 16:04|| Front Page Top

#21 I do think it depends a lot on the caliber and the particular round you choose. As I mentioned, I shoot 9mm, not one of the larger calibers. In #11 above I was referencing law enforcement, which also often carries 9mm rather than the larger calibers. They aren't necessarily wanting the biggest firepower possible, but rather the quickest stopping power.

A .40 or .45 is a different story, especially in the larger grains with high pressure.

One reason I chose the Cor-Bon is that it tests to have less penetration than many other 9mm defense JHPs while still giving excellent stopping power. The Federal Hydra-Shok and the Speer Gold Dot control the expansion more and penetrate farther than the Cor-Bon. Or so the gentlemen who authored the articles I read said. ;-)

But your mileage will certainly vary.

I too readily defer to those with a lot more expertise in all this. I sleep a bit more soundly, tho, knowing I have well-rated ammunition for defense that has an excellent stopping capability but isn't likely to harm my neighbors a couple hundred feet away.

Assuming I hit the attacker.

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 16:23|| 2006-08-26 16:23|| Front Page Top

#22 BTW, if it sounds like I've over-thought this business of what specific ammo to buy for defense, it's because I live in a very gun-hostile state.

I've never had to shoot at anyone and hope it never comes to that. But if I do, I sure want to be able to demonstrate that I was responsible in my choice of caliber and round.

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 17:21|| 2006-08-26 17:21|| Front Page Top

#23 If I were allowed to own a firearm in my village (I can't) and if I felt the need for a defense-oriented weapon, I think I'd go for a 410 gauge shotgun, pump action, with fine shot -- maybe even salt.

First, as lotp notes, I won't take out a neighbor accidentally. Second, there's nothing like the 'snick-snack' of a pump action weapon being loaded to freeze the average home invader. Third, fine shot will stop him without killing him. And finally, as I proved to everyone's satisfaction at Boy Scout camp, I'm a lousy shot.

Again, that's just me.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-08-26 17:48|| 2006-08-26 17:48|| Front Page Top

#24 A shotgun is something I have in mind when the budget allows. But my husband has zero interest in owning or shooting one, so it isn't our highest priority.

I started with the handguns when we were in another state and I do enjoy shooting just as a sport. Wish I had time now to get out to practice more.

I have another consideration ... a handgun can be locked in a hidden quick-release safe by my bed. Our home is sometimes host to a relative who should not be around loaded weapons, or weapons at all. Although I could keep shells in a small safe and prop the shotgun nearby, I'd rather not have a weapon visible at all. And, I am absolutely certain I could not open our main gunsafe at 3AM in the dark!

Posted by lotp 2006-08-26 17:55|| 2006-08-26 17:55|| Front Page Top

#25 home protection is Winchester Defender - 12 GA pump, 18" barrel, pistol grip - legal, even here in CA. 7+1 chambered. Shells on the sling strap. Seemed adequate to me

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-08-26 18:25|| 2006-08-26 18:25|| Front Page Top

#26 Nothing beats a sawed off Rotweiler for in home defense.

Posted by 6 2006-08-26 20:00|| 2006-08-26 20:00|| Front Page Top

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