Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Tue 05/04/2004 View Mon 05/03/2004 View Sun 05/02/2004 View Sat 05/01/2004 View Fri 04/30/2004 View Thu 04/29/2004 View Wed 04/28/2004
1
2004-05-04 Iraq-Jordan
Iraqi torture was devised by CIA, claims lawyer
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Phil B 2004-05-04 12:01:19 PM|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 They treated us like women

Check out the psycho-analytical roots of terror article elsewhere on this site. It could be worse: they could have been treated like young boys.

::shudder:: (again)
Posted by eLarson 2004-05-04 12:05:55 PM||   2004-05-04 12:05:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 [Troll droppings deleted]
Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM||   2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 OK, Mike so what is the problem, because I don't see one.
Posted by Phil B  2004-05-04 12:18:35 PM||   2004-05-04 12:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I am struggling ,too, to put this into perspective.
No excuses offered, but what I have seen so far reminds me of "Hell Week" in any number of fraternities through at least 1985... and nothing close to people shredding.
Posted by Capsu78 2004-05-04 12:24:00 PM||   2004-05-04 12:24:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I have an odd thought.

Although we must react to the soldier's actions now that they've been dispalyed, I am wondering what effect this photos will really have?

What we've seen is far less severe than Saddahm did. Yet, those Iraqis, who are the insurgents, who seem to respond more to force than to gentleness, might actually be less inclined to challenge because of fear of being naked in front of a woman MP?

I am not condoning the actions of the MPs, I am just asking the question.

Remember on the micro/local level, we are building schools, feeding people, etc etc, and those people are likely more to respond to the personal interaction rather thatn what they see on TV. The ones whipped into a frenzy to fight, like the Sunni Triangle Ba'athists, or the Sadr militia, might get a "message" from the bad photos, feeling all our talk about punishment of the MPs is for show, and not reality.

They may be less inclined to fight if they think they will be naked in front of that female MP, to them, a fate worse than death.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-04 12:24:38 PM||   2004-05-04 12:24:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Another round of "cripple the CIA" bullshit.

Lest we forget what the previous rounds led us to.
Posted by someone 2004-05-04 12:28:32 PM||   2004-05-04 12:28:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I call bullshit on the "it was the CIA" crap -- can you think of a better way to play on Vietnam-era conspiracy theories embedded in the skulls of a jury of those who couldn't think up an excuse peers by decades of Hollywood tripe?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-04 12:31:05 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-04 12:31:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Here you have a trained, professional corrections officer caught abusing prisoners and trying to weasel out of it. When the story first broke, he claimed that he wasn't "properly trained." That didn't sell. Now, he's claiming that the CIA made him do it. This will play well among the moonbat left, and, it is probably hoped, it will make the guy enough of a cause celebre that he'll get off light (or get a pardon from the Kerry administration.)

Note to Atty. Womack: the "I was only following orders" defense got tried at Nuremberg. It didn't work.
Posted by Mike  2004-05-04 12:33:59 PM||   2004-05-04 12:33:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Since Frank Church is dead, who will they get to gut the CIA this time? It's a quagmire... of loonies lining up for the job - assuming heavy TV converage.
Posted by .com 2004-05-04 12:37:07 PM||   2004-05-04 12:37:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 
The problem is that these interrogation techniques conflict with other goals.
* encouraging surrenders instead of resistance
* development of good will throughout the population
* recruitment of collaborators
* maximizing the reliability of information
* encouraging compliance with international law
* encouraging proper treatment of US troops who are captured
* enforcing military discipline and order
* improving the reputation of the United States

The military personnel -- all up and down the chain of command -- who were actively or passively involved in this scandal believed mistakenly that the importance of collecting tactical intelligence from captives always trumps all other considerations. There was a catastrophic failure to exercise good judgement, to weigh potential costs and benefits.

It seems that these rough techniques had become routine instead of serving as a last resort in extraordinary situations. As the techniques became routine, the perpetrators became inured, thoughtless, reckless, and then amazingly foolish.

The Intelligence Community call already give a goodbye kiss to its recent expectation that the Supreme Court would allow extensive prerogatives in isolating terrorists from legal oversight. The Intelligence Community has only itself to blame.
.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-04 1:43:21 PM||   2004-05-04 1:43:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Mike, why do you think these were really "interrogation techniques"? This story is about the line a defense lawyer's peddling; it's 99% guaranteed to be bunk.

Your willingness to believe it doesn't speak well of your judgement.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-04 1:45:36 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-05-04 1:45:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Well, this is what defense attorneys are for - when the accused crime is so heinous that they literally have no friends. I was just thinking about this - that the guards have no-one behind them except their lawyers. Certainly not me. I was willing to see them hanged in front of Abu Ghraib and at the gates of Baghdad. I recognize I'm somewhat biased on the subject.

Do I believe the lawyer? No. But he has an obligation to offer reasonable defenses to test the case brought against his clients.

But there were rapes and unexplained deaths involved. We're not talking about "interrogation techniques" and "frat boy hazing". Somebody needs to do time, and possibly a whole bunch of somebodies, almost certainly starting with this lawyer's clients, as soon as he fails to spread the guilt around enough to win an acquittal. "Following orders" isn't a valid excuse for sadistic glee caught on camera. Caught, I might add, for the future amusement of the sadists.

I have to say, this is the wrong tack for a defense. The only thing that'll get them off is proof that the photos are faked. So long as those naked men are actually prisoners, the accused are fucked.
Posted by Mitch H.  2004-05-04 2:22:20 PM|| [http://blogfonte.blogspot.com/]  2004-05-04 2:22:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 
why do you think these were really "interrogation techniques"?

Read Seymour Hersh's article.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-04 2:38:56 PM||   2004-05-04 2:38:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Hey gents, why don't we let the military courts figure this one out. AFAIK, none of us were there so trying the case without real knowledge other then media droppings from the new yorker or wherever is not going to do it (& I happen to like Hersch). Saying this or that guy needs to hang is also a little pre-mature, especially guys who had clean records up to this point. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt having been in their boots until a full investigation and court proceeding is finished. Plus, if there was a death of an epw due to guard malice said name servicemen would've of been going through court martial proceedings way before now.

I agree though, pictures was a stupid thing to do and I fear for the guys who came forward on this and leaked to the media. The unit should've handled all this in house, now we've got a fiasco. Just like the West case but on a definitely more stark level. If the worse that comes out of this is some Iraqis getting cold water thrown on them and walking around doing naked pyramids - then who gives a f*ck, most of us on active duty don't give a sh*t about that. If intel was breaking these b*tches down to get info and it got carried too far then they have to pay the piper and take the lesson learned. I'd like to get old spooks' take on this from the intel angle.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-04 3:33:56 PM||   2004-05-04 3:33:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 " 'They treated us like women.' And that my friend says it all. "

No kidding.

Wonder if AlJeez is gonna do a prime-time tv "special" on the treatment of women and children in the Middle East by their own "Heroes of Islam."

(crickets chirping)
Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-04 3:57:05 PM||   2004-05-04 3:57:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 "A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.)

(From the Rantburg-link-to-Rantburg article (#13).)

Hard to tell who told who to do what, and who was doing stuff on their own--but sounds like things were going astray from the start at Abu Ghraib, including the jailing of innocent Iraqis.

What strikes me is that the perps don't have the same level of training and discipline our other soldiers do (and, what makes someone want to become a prison guard here in the States anyway? Hmm.) and that the General in charge didn't have any experience with prison management. That was a dumb appointment. What were they thinking?

Guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-04 4:09:12 PM||   2004-05-04 4:09:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 My first impression is that a commander lost control of the unit. In a war zone, that can be fatal to all, especially to command.

Of course defeatists and leftists will use this and milk it for all it's worth, for its public relations value, which isn't much, especially when you consider the rather huge and loud yawn the press gave to Iraqi mass graves.

Someone Saturday night asked me about this and I told them, ( they were liberals/leftists) the CIA wouldn't have ordered anything like this. If the spooks really thought these folks had information worth telling, those people would somehow disappear into the night, either to be turned or drain of information, in either case never to be heard from again. As it is, I fail to see how civilians or even enlisted Iraqi troops would have caught the interest of our spooks.

Maybe I was wrong to say that, but I am pretty certain the CIA wouldn't order those college level hi-jinks. I like to think our spooks ( God Bless 'em anyways ) are professional enough that iffin' they are involved in black ops, it would be in such a way they are clear of blame.

But, as I said, this doesn't appear to be anything more than a commander who lost control of the troops. A good enough reason to cashier any officer.
Posted by badanov  2004-05-04 6:38:45 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org]  2004-05-04 6:38:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 ...Actually, every last one of those idiots is screwed as soon as the Army locates the class roster for their Law Of Armed Combat briefing that everybody gets every year, and covers all of that nice stuff. They can blame it on the CIA all they want, and it won't work.

Mike
Posted by Anonymous4730 2004-05-04 10:05:45 PM||   2004-05-04 10:05:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 [Troll droppings deleted]
Posted by Man Bites Dog TROLL 2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM||   2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Mike Sylwester TROLL 2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM||   2004-05-04 12:08:12 PM|| Front Page Top

17:35 Anonymous4775
15:02 Anonymous4752
03:22 someone else
11:47 cingold
07:33 Howard UK
06:52 Bulldog
06:50 Super Hose
06:49 Bulldog
06:10 Howard UK
06:04 Bulldog
05:18 Howard UK
05:10 Bulldog
04:11 Anonymous4617
03:04 Zenster
02:33 someone
01:59 Jen
01:43 Anonymous4617
01:30 Eric Jablow
01:21 Bomb-a-rama
01:17 Anonymous4617
01:08 Anonymous4617
01:01 Beau
00:26 Zhang Fei
00:03 Mr. Davis
Merry-Go-Blog










Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com