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2004-02-26

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Posted by Steve 2004-02-26 9:46:24 AM|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Probably need to limit posts so that ample room will remain for the flood of protests from academia and leftist groups protesting the racism inherent in this action. Your server will, I'm sure, be overwhelmed.

Posted by Highlander 2004-2-26 10:15:01 AM|| 2004-2-26 10:15:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Highlander - you forgot to close with (/sarcasm). In all these articles that quote the percentage of "arable land" I wonder how that was established. Is this the % of land possibly arable (i.e.: no mountain slopes or rock outcrops) or the % arable because the evil white ~~usurpers~~ farmers (and their black laborers, of course) cleared the land, irrigated it, and made it arable? Big diff in the moral outrage argument. To my knowledge these lands were not cultivated prior to colonization to any great extent, either here, or in Bobland. It was subsistence farming at best

Posted by Frank G 2004-2-26 10:44:27 AM|| 2004-2-26 10:44:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Frank, you ought to read what the lovely white German farmers of South West Africa did, and what the German govt did for them. Try googling "Herrero" "Trotha" "extermination" or some combination.

Posted by liberalhawk 2004-2-26 1:23:19 PM|| 2004-2-26 1:23:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Which doesnt mean that this land seizure is a good idea.

Doesnt prove its a bad idea. Forced (but compensated) seizures have been part of succesful land reforms, including, IIUC, Taiwan.
Problems in Zim-bob-we include fast pace which aggravated loss of skills, lack of compensation, and allocation of land to political cronies rather than in a more rational manner. Not clear from the above is that is the way Namibia is headed.

Posted by liberalhawk 2004-2-26 1:35:18 PM|| 2004-2-26 1:35:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Still waitin for my 40 and a mule.

Posted by Spike Lee 2004-2-26 1:53:00 PM|| 2004-2-26 1:53:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Yeah, LH, I'd buy that if the expropriations were based on a criterion other than race. The old saw that -- "We're seizing some farms for land reform. It's only a coincidence that we're seizing them from only white farmers. And, by the way, if you challenge our interpretation, that's clearly racist."-- isn't as widely accepted as it once was.

Posted by Highlander 2004-2-26 2:09:00 PM|| 2004-2-26 2:09:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Spot on, Frank. Unfortunately these guys wish to return to living in caves and digging up roots of plants to eat. When there are no more, they will ask for Aid and then loot the warehouse.
LH, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and mine is that you are a lost soul looking for a horse to whip, (or you're having a laugh). (Am I allowed to say that, as it is an opinion based on the fact I read your post)? Post-Independance Africa has been truely massively big on the bummer scale for a lot of people, and only a small proportion were White. Fact, not based on opinion, other than quality of life for all people

Posted by Rhodesiafever 2004-2-26 2:50:18 PM|| 2004-2-26 2:50:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Pre-independence africa was also a bummer, particularly outside of the British colonies.

Look, if you want to argue that British imperialism in africa was largely a good thing(at least OUTSIDE of Southern Rhodesia and South Africa), i'll listen, and to a great extent agree. If you want to say that about French imperialism in africa, I'll listen with some skepticism. If you want to say that about Belgian and German imperialism, i'll listen, but i'l' think you're crazy or having you own laugh.

The Germans wiped out most of the Hererro. The belgians enslaved people. Brazza, the frenchman who FOUNDED French Congo, was shocked at how the area had been depopulated during the rubber boom.

Does that mean the africans should blame all their problems on imperialism - of course not - you need only look and see that SOME of african countries have managed to overcome their problems and make progress - (i would note that at least till now Namibia has been relatively successful)

Posted by liberalhawk 2004-2-26 4:03:22 PM|| 2004-2-26 4:03:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 highlander

are there any large farms in either Zim or Namib that are not owned by whites?

have you read the history of how the whites ended up with the land in Zimbabwe? the ndebele had taken over Mashonaland. Rhodes et al told the king of ndebele (no nice guy himself) that they wanted mineral rights in mashonaland. they then took the place over and parceled out the land among WHITE SETTLERS only. The Ndebele, went on the war path against some Mashona, on what had become white territory. Rhodes then went to war against the Ndebele. He confiscated almost all the land, on the grounds that it had been state land, although in fact royal control of most land was nominal. He then parcelled it out among WHITE SETTLERS. HUGE parcels.

And the Boers in the Transvaal had a history of just grabbing land from blacks with even less justification. In fact the main reason to excuse Rhodes is that if he hadnt gone in,the land would just have been taken by the Boers anyway, and they would have been even worse for blacks then Rhodesia was.

Posted by liberalhawk 2004-2-26 4:09:54 PM|| 2004-2-26 4:09:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 frank G - how is subsistence farming not cultivation? if theres no particular market for a cash crop, subsitence farming is economically logical. Plenty of Americans ran subsistence farms in the early US, especially in New England and the less fertile parts of the South (the mountains and elsewhere)

Posted by liberalhawk 2004-2-26 4:13:00 PM|| 2004-2-26 4:13:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 LH, or should that be Freedom-fighter? So a white Rhodesian is nominally better than an Ndebele, much better than a Boer, and nowhere near as good as a Mashona. You have obviously done some research on the subject

Posted by Rhodesiafever 2004-2-26 5:36:55 PM|| 2004-2-26 5:36:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Spike - I'm waiting, too. I need the mule so there'll be something on the property more stubborn than I am (although just slightly...). I've got my 40 picked out - NICE country! Will let the entire world know if/when I get it!

As for Namibia, I'd be happy to see the black Namibians take over as much farmland as there is from white settlers - as soon as they can prove they have the same capacity for growing food on it. Bob's "transition" was a farce, and resulted in the biggest disaster Zimbabwe has faced in forever. You's think the people of Namibia would look at that and do a bit of thinking, but guess not.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-2-26 7:58:19 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-2-26 7:58:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 At the risk of stating the obvious all the farmland in the world was expropriated by force at some time (from hunter gatherers and subsdidence farmers). It just happened more recently in some places.

A second point is that the British had a colonial infrastructure that acted to stop excesses by individual and groups of individuals. Germany being a much more recent colonial power largely lacked this infrastructure.

Posted by phil_b 2004-2-26 8:01:13 PM|| 2004-2-26 8:01:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 LH - subsistence farming, while fine, is small scale and subject to the slightest disruption by drought, locusts, etc. I don't think the appropriation of the farms is in any way a good thing for black OR whites. Zim is a cankersore where it once was a breadbasket. I do not believe the workers on white farms would disagree. As it is now, they are fed, paid, and have a future. When the parcelling out to (black gov't) cronies is done, there will be death, hunger, and crime. IIUC There is no knowledgeable class (at this stage)among the blacks about how to run large farming ventures, and in any case, those receiving the farms are not those who give a f&*k about them except how much they can steal and strip before the land goes fallow. I call that a crime against all colors

Posted by Frank G 2004-2-26 8:40:49 PM|| 2004-2-26 8:40:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Dammit! Now I have to double down on the famine pool! Friggin' Namibia!

Posted by tu3031 2004-2-26 9:21:42 PM|| 2004-2-26 9:21:42 PM|| Front Page Top

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