Arabia |
Saudi Militant Urges War on U.S. in Appeal Before Death
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An al Qaeda operative killed by Saudi police last week urged Muslims in a message taped before his death to join al Qaeda ranks to expel "infidel" Westerners from Saudi Arabia and topple the kingdomâs pro-U.S. monarchy. "The battle is between Islam and crusaders, good and evil, Godâs soldiers and those of the devil, between the mujahideen, led by Sheikh Osama bin Laden and his party of God, and the infidel Americans and their allies in the party of Satan," said the tape purportedly from Fahd bin Ali al-Dakheel al-Ghabalan. "The mujahideen will continue to fight the infidel Americans whatever the price and fighting them is a duty for all Muslims," said the audio tape on the latest edition of "Sawt al-Jihad," the online publication of the Saudi al Qaeda wing.
The 39-minute-long tape began with a brief introduction about Ghabalan, saying he had fought in Afghanistan before and after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and that he had been involved in several clashes with Saudi police. Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday. He was not on a wanted list of 26 top militants but Saudi security sources said he was in charge of overseeing the smuggling of arms and explosives into the kingdom for attacks. "Victory is near and all Muslims should fulfil their duties by praying to God, supporting us and providing information about where the enemy is located," said the man on the tape, available on Friday. He accused the Saudi royal family of stealing the countryâs oil riches, being Washingtonâs lackey and betraying Islam by "opening its airports to Americans and giving them military bases and heavily-guarded, luxury residential compounds." He said al Qaeda would continue its battle until a "real Islamic state" emerged in the ultra-conservative kingdom, which enforces strict Islamic sharia law.
A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last monthâs killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the groupâs determination. It dismissed a limited one-month government amnesty for militants to surrender, under which two militants have turned themselves in.
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Posted by: Anonymous4724 ||
07/09/2004 11:41:14 AM ||
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#1
wonder what he'll say in the sequel......oh |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 19:55 Comments ||
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#2
From the article: A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last monthâs killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the groupâs determination.
Of course it will. Just as the Sudanese Mahdi's death increased the determination of the men annihilated by Lord Kitchener 100 years ago. Just as Yakub Beg's execution by the Chinese made Uighurs more determined almost 200 years ago. Dream on... |
Posted by: Zhang Fei ||
07/09/2004 23:15 Comments ||
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3 times in Saudi, de la Cruz just got unlucky
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Like having to work in Saudi Arabia (3 times) was not punishment enough! I hope he gets back to his family in one piece.
Angelo de la Cruzâs brood of eight children appealed to the government on Friday to negotiate for their fatherâs release. De la Cruz, employed by a Saudi-based company, was seized by Iraqi militants on Wednesday as he delivered crude oil to Iraq. In an interview, Judith de la Cruz-Carreon, 26, eldest daughter of the hostage, appealed to President Arroyo and other government agencies to help free their father. âWe are appealing to our beloved President to please, please help our father so that he can be brought home alive. He was only forced to go to the Middle East because it is hard to find work here. We want to be with him. Please have pity on us, President Gloria,â Judith told newsmen in Tagalog and Pampango between sobs Friday.
Judith spoke in behalf of her family as Angeloâs wife, Arsenia, 48, was invited by Overseas Workers Welfare Administration (Owwa) officials to provide detailed information on her husband. She said her father was forced to seek employment in Saudi Arabia, as he had been unemployed for at least two years when his last contract, also in the Middle East, expired. Judith said Angelo has been working overseas for more than nine years. He has been to the Middle Eastern kingdom three times. Angelo left last year for a two-year contract as a truck driver in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, his fourth visit. âWe have been telling him that he was too old to be working abroad, but he said that he is working to have the family house improved and save enough for a small business, then he would stop,â Judith said. Angelo sends P7,500 to P10,000 monthly to the family, and that provides for their needs.
She said that their father also worked abroad so that four of the children, one in college, another in high school and two others in elementary, could finish their studies. Judith is the eldest child followed by Juliesis, 24; Jenielyn, 22; Jacqueline, 19; Joanna 16; Jerome, 11; Jerick, 6; and, the youngest, Jefferson, who at four, still could not speak as he is afflicted with Downâs Syndrome. Jacqueline left for Japan three months ago to look for a job. Besides his dreams for the family that he hopes to achieve with his employment overseas, Judith said her father had debts to pay, accumulated over the years when he was unemployed. Judith said Angelo was also able to buy his eldest son, Juliesis, a tricycle to help him earn a living.
It has been a year and three months since Angelo left for Saudi Arabia on a job he got after more than two years of unemployment. He has not been home since. Judith said she and her mother Arsenia last talked to Angelo on Sunday. âHe was in a hurry then as he told us that he had a delivery to make to Iraq. He told us to call him after four days,â Judith said. However, they could no longer get in touch with him on Thursday, saying all they heard was the Saudi operator. It was later on that they learned about his capture on television. Members of Angeloâs family, relatives and neighbors appealed to everyone through placards to pray for Angeloâs safety and for his safe return as they are fearful that the fate that befell an American and a South Korean might happen to Angelo, unless the government takes immediate steps to resolve the situation. ... âWe are all praying for our fatherâs safety and we are appealing to everyone to please join us in prayers. We are praying that he be spared from the fate of the American and Korean who were beheaded,â Judith said, amid tears she and her brothers and sisters could no longer hold back...
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Posted by: Anonymous4724 ||
07/09/2004 11:55:45 AM ||
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#1
One thing is absolutely certain, his Saudi employer will not lift a finger on his behalf, though the Saudi Gov't might - y'know a big PR bonanza awaits them should they decide to try and then succeed. Big juju, Abbie. *hint hint* |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 20:41 Comments ||
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Tape urges war on the US
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An al Qaeda operative killed by Saudi police last week urged Muslims in a message taped before his death to join al Qaeda ranks to expel "infidel" Westerners from Saudi Arabia and topple the kingdomâs pro-U.S. monarchy.
"The battle is between Islam and crusaders, good and evil, Godâs soldiers and those of the devil, between the mujahideen, led by Sheikh Osama bin Laden and his party of God, and the infidel Americans and their allies in the party of Satan," said the tape purportedly from Fahd bin Ali al-Dakheel al-Ghabalan.
"The mujahideen will continue to fight the infidel Americans whatever the price and fighting them is a duty for all Muslims," said the audio tape on the latest edition of "Sawt al-Jihad", the online publication of the Saudi al Qaeda wing.
The 39-minute-long tape began with a brief introduction about Ghabalan, saying he had fought in Afghanistan before and after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and that he had been involved in several clashes with Saudi police.
Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday. He was not on a wanted list of 26 top militants but Saudi security sources said he was in charge of overseeing the smuggling of arms and explosives into the kingdom for attacks.
"Victory is near and all Muslims should fulfil their duties by praying to God, supporting us and providing information about where the enemy is located," said the man on the tape, available on Friday.
He accused the Saudi royal family of stealing the countryâs oil riches, being Washingtonâs lackey and betraying Islam by "opening its airports to Americans and giving them military bases and heavily-guarded, luxury residential compounds."
He said al Qaeda would continue its battle until a "real Islamic state" emerged in the ultra-conservative kingdom, which enforces strict Islamic sharia law.
A separate statement on Sawt al-Jihad said last monthâs killing of their leader in Saudi Arabia, Abdulaziz al-Muqrin, would only increase the groupâs determination. It dismissed a limited one-month government amnesty for militants to surrender, under which two militants have turned themselves in.
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 8:46:57 AM ||
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#1
Wait a minute, didn't this guy's boss want U.S. forces removed from the Magic Kingdom? And didn't that happen? So why the "expansion" of demands to now include "Westerners"?
Sounds like nothing is going to satisfy these Al-Qaida degenerates.... |
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama ||
07/09/2004 11:50 Comments ||
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#2
Here's the part I liked best...
Security forces killed Ghabalan in a shootout in the Saudi capital Riyadh last Wednesday.
For you, the war is over. |
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/09/2004 11:57 Comments ||
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#3
muslims are filthy fucking murderers. Their demon god allah is a piece of filthy shit. Their child fucking prophet muhammad is a piece of filthy shit. Their koran is a filthy piece of shit....and I wipe my ass with it's pages.
It's time to rain fire upon these filthy animals and cleanse the earth of their presence. |
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
07/09/2004 12:43 Comments ||
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#4
Jeebus, Pete! |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 12:45 Comments ||
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#5
Can I use your bathroom Pete? Gotta take a dump. |
Posted by: Lucky ||
07/09/2004 12:50 Comments ||
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#6
Hey, Frank - I dunno 'bout you, but when Pete skips the meds, he makes me sound damned reasonable - or wimpy! |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 12:53 Comments ||
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#7
and wiping your ass with a filthy piece of shit sounds counterproductive to me |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 12:54 Comments ||
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#8
I'm thinking Pete drank about 4 gallons of coffee this morning. He is cranky! |
Posted by: remote man ||
07/09/2004 13:33 Comments ||
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#9
Obviously an Italian Sprinter fan.
These things happen,
there's always next year!
And this year Spain and the Olympics.
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 13:52 Comments ||
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#10
It's de-caf for you from now on, HP! |
Posted by: Zenster ||
07/09/2004 15:51 Comments ||
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#11
Comeon Halfass, tell us how you really feel!
Dont stop now! |
Posted by: CrazyFool ||
07/09/2004 16:42 Comments ||
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#12
Yeah yeah |
Posted by: WhiteHouseDetox ||
07/09/2004 18:47 Comments ||
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#13
HP, dude, you are one hard core Mooslimb hating MOFO! I like that, I can't wait for huntin' season to open.
CiT |
Posted by: CiT ||
07/09/2004 19:37 Comments ||
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Dr. Al-Gosaibi Targets Small Businesses Again for Saudization
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Friday, 9, July, 2004 (22, Jumada al-Ula, 1425)
Abdul Wahab Bashir, Arab News
Â
JEDDAH, 9 July 2004 â Saudi Arabia is planning once again to decrease its dependence on foreign workers in its effort to reduce high unemployment levels throughout the country. An earlier arrangement exempting small businesses from abiding by Saudization laws may come under review as the Ministry of Labor boosts the pace of the transition.
"... decrease its dependence on foreign workers in its effort to reduce high unemployment levels ..."
Donât worry. Thatâs happening right now, Saudi Arabia just hasnât prepared for it at all. Those "foreign workers" make possible a lot of other support and service industry jobs.
Labor Minister Dr. Ghazi Al-Gosaibi said yesterday he was determined to end unemployment, reported Al-Watan newspaper. âI clarified after I was appointed minister that the ministry will adopt a 13-point program to combat the problem of unemployment. These points included curbing the need for foreign workers and raising the standards of Saudi labor,â Al-Gosaibi said.
The minister said he does not expect the problem of unemployment among Saudis to be solved in the short-term. âIn regards to the question of when unemployment will be stamped out, I think it is not possible in three years but I hope it will not take longer than nine,â he said.
The only "short-term" solution is emphasizing technical education over religious teaching. That hasnât been happening a lot and not much will change until it does.
Figures by the Ministry of Financeâs department of statistics show that some 300,000 Saudis or 10 percent of the countryâs workforce are unemployed. According to official sources, Saudi Arabia is home to 24 million people, some six million of whom are foreigners.
Al-Gosaibi said he was considering requiring small firms to hire more Saudis under the Saudization program, adding that it is now time to review the arrangement granting small businesses an exception from applying Saudization regulations.
And out come the fangs of a parasitic regime. Itâs almost like you could exchange Saudization with Communism. Decreeing more jobs be provided for the unskilled or unmotivated will not pay their salaries. ONE QUARTER of Saudi Arabiaâs population is expatriate for a simple reason. After a decades-long running jump at how to extract and refine petroleum distillates, too few Saudis either care or are able to figure out how. This is the ultimate reward of overemphasizing religious scholarship.
âSmall institutions with fewer than 20 workers have been completely exempted from Saudization, despite the fact that there is a large number of foreign workers in them. Perhaps it is the time to review that decision,â the minister said. He added that Saudization applies to all businesses, big or small, although up to now the focus has been on big companies because they are more capable of employing and training.
Al-Gosaibi said he hoped the situation regarding settling labor disputes will improve with the introduction of a new labor law currently being discussed by the Shoura Council. âI hope the situation will get better with the new system which will in the long run allow for labor disputes to be settled through Shairah courts as in the case of other disputes.â Asked about businessmen who threaten to move their activities outside the Kingdom if pressed with Saudization, Al-Gosaibi said he cannot force people who do not want to invest in their own country and do not want to employ Saudi citizens from moving their investments off-shore. He, however, hoped the threat was not a serious one.
âDo you think the solution to the (unemployment) problem lies in preventing investors from moving their businesses outside the country or in not taking measures to curb unemployment? âEvery country in the world is keen on attracting investments to pave the way for its citizens to find jobs. When an investor comes and says he wants to move his business abroad and does not want to employ Saudi citizens, what can I say to him other than goodbye? I hope such a threat, which I have heard only once, is just a slip of the tongue.â
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Posted by: Zenster ||
07/09/2004 12:50:51 AM ||
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#1
I've heard tell that a big problem in addition to the lack of skilled workers is the general attitude and work ethic. Saudi men are supposedly scorful of hard/menial labor and have a hard time accpeting the loss of status associated with being an employee - working for a stranger.
Maybe businesses will pick up and move to Iraq. |
Posted by: John in Tokyo ||
07/09/2004 4:38 Comments ||
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#2
"Saudization" -- sounds like something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. |
Posted by: virginian ||
07/09/2004 8:47 Comments ||
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#3
virginian: I think they are our worst enemies. |
Posted by: BH ||
07/09/2004 9:52 Comments ||
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#4
so basically each small biz will have to hire two lazy bookend Saoodis to meet a quota. Affirmative Action window dressing |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 10:08 Comments ||
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#5
They have been trying that for years and it has never worked. Last year, they tried it with taxi drivers. The goal was to get the taxis to be driven by saudis. The results: saudis bought the taxis, registered themselves as drivers, then went ahead and hired some indian or pakistani to drive the taxis for just about nothing. Labor hand here is paid just enough to not be considered slavery. As long as they can hired nationals from other countries at slavery wages, the saudizitation will never take place. |
Posted by: Anonymous4724 ||
07/09/2004 10:24 Comments ||
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#6
Once you've herded goats it's very difficult to sit in front of a monitor or pound a nail.
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 10:34 Comments ||
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#7
For one thing, you can't f*ck a monitor. |
Posted by: BH ||
07/09/2004 10:37 Comments ||
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#8
You might note that the only way that a programme like this could work, even or paper, would be to expel large numbers of foreigners. (Hint, hint.)
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Posted by: Anonymoose ||
07/09/2004 11:17 Comments ||
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#9
You want fries with that...INFIDEL! |
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/09/2004 12:24 Comments ||
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#10
tu - Lol! If you only knew, lol, what it's like in a place like KFC or Burger King in SaoodiLand!
No lines (they're for infidels, I guess), just a crush against the counter and, on the other side, a frightened-looking Filipino or Indian, not sure who to serve first! This is the norm. I almost got in trouble my first week in '92 cuz I grabbed some asshole and pushed him to the end of the "line" (actually, a mob I was blocking from getting past me) in a Wendy's in Dammam. When my friends and I got our orders and left the building, they all broke out laughing at me and explained that I had prolly deeply offended some big-wig's kid. I do recall the incredible look of shock and surprise on his face as I put him back behind me, lol! If he HAD been a Saudi somebody, no doubt I would've been tossed out of SA. I had a similar 'duh' moment in a bank with some Indian who was so close behind me in line (banks rope everything off so there are actually lines, heh) that I thought I was about to discover the joys of anal. I turned around, stiff-armed his ass 2 feet back, and told him he'd get to the front in the same length of time, so just stay off my ass. His look was one of pure mystification. All of the Saudis working in the bank snickered - and I got wonderful service when I got to the Teller, lol! After about a month I figured out how to get along there by just giving them a "look", lol! Sigh, what a fucking freak show. |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 12:45 Comments ||
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#11
Sirrauh! I am only here to make tiny depsoit!
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 13:55 Comments ||
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#12
No matter what the size - that window is closed! Lol! |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 13:59 Comments ||
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Britain |
SUICIDE BOMBER VERDICTS
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The brother and sister of British suicide bomber Omar Khan Sharif are to be retried on allegations they failed to stop his attempted Israeli bomb attack. Three people died when Sharif and his accomplice Asif Hanif launched an attack on a busy Tel Aviv bar in April last year. Sharifâs explosives failed to go off but his body was found offshore the following month. His brother, Zahid, and sister, Parveen, were ordered to be retried at the Old Bailey in November on charges of failing to report information which could have prevented an act of terrorism. Jurors had failed to reach a verdict on the pair. Parveen, a 36-year-old teacher, was also ordered to be retried on a charge of inciting her brother to commit an act of terrorism after a jury failed to agree verdicts.
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Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 1:02:53 AM ||
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#1
And in my home town of Derby they were distributing leflets outside the Mosque asking 'are you British or Muslim?' Apparently the two put together are an oxymoron. Many good and decent muslims in Derby are being dragged into the mire by scum like these - notably affluent, educated public school types. Shoot 'em. |
Posted by: Howard UK ||
07/09/2004 6:40 Comments ||
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#2
Howard, it sounds like an total invasion by jihadists.
God save the Queen and all her loyal subjects. |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 17:30 Comments ||
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#3
Drawing is from the 3rd Afghan War. |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 17:32 Comments ||
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Knife smuggled on board BA jet
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British Airways has launched an investigation after a journalist smuggled an 8in Buck Knife on to a high-risk flight in the Middle East. The weapon went unnoticed by security guards at Kuwait airport who allowed The Sun reporter to board the BA flight back to Londonâs Heathrow. Placed at the bottom of hand luggage, the knife, which has a 3.5in blade, passed through two X-ray machines without raising an alarm. The reporter then boarded the Boeing 777 with the knife and was photographed with the weapon as he sat in business class.
A British Airways spokeswoman said security at Kuwait airport is the responsibility of the Directorate General for Civil Aviation, part of the Kuwait government. "We take this incident extremely seriously and have launched an immediate investigation," she said. "The DGCA carries out security searches on behalf of all airlines at Kuwait airport. "On receiving information about this incident, we immediately contacted the DGCA and asked them to review security as well as implementing additional measures at Kuwait airport. "We are also sending security experts to the area to work with the Kuwaiti government to satisfy and reassure ourselves that all security procedures carried out by the DGCA are of the highest standard."
Has the reporter been horse-whipped yet? |
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Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 12:55:50 AM ||
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#1
In this case it was a bull whip which was utilized. |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 21:30 Comments ||
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China-Japan-Koreas |
N Korea prepares for war against US
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North Koreaâs defence chief urged soldiers on Thursday to step up combat preparations, denouncing the United States for plotting an attack on the communist country. The order was contained in a speech made by Defence Minister Kim Il-Chol to mark the 10th anniversary of the death of former North Korean president Kim Il-Sung. âThe service-persons will increase the combat capability and step up the combat preparations in every way under the uplifted slogan of a-match-for-a hundred (a soldier capable of beating 100 enemy soldiers) to defend as firm as an iron wall the socialist motherland,â he said. The defence minister accused Washington of stepping up âpreparations for a war of aggression behind the curtain of the six-party talks.â North Korea is ready to mobilise its âmilitary deterrent force built up for years ... and accomplish the historic cause of national reunification without fail,â he said. North Korea regularly accuses the United States of plotting a surprise attack on the Stalinist state.
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Posted by: Fred ||
07/09/2004 10:59:23 PM ||
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#1
yawn . . . |
Posted by: spiffo ||
07/09/2004 0:31 Comments ||
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#2
The Norks better have their model railroad train tracks fixed up good for their resupply from the Chicoms. Materael goes quickly in a sea of fire campaign. |
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks ||
07/09/2004 0:37 Comments ||
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#3
Why are the US and neighbors still feeding NK. Let the NK Army cannibalize (literally) itself. |
Posted by: ed ||
07/09/2004 0:54 Comments ||
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#4
Seven carriers going to the area, and NK is preparing for war... |
Posted by: Anonymous5628 ||
07/09/2004 2:12 Comments ||
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#5
Heard Dear Leader shot an 18 yesterday. Not bad for 18 holes. |
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/09/2004 8:15 Comments ||
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#6
Starting to get tired of hearing this dog yap.... |
Posted by: JerseyMike ||
07/09/2004 8:41 Comments ||
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#7
Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? |
Posted by: BH ||
07/09/2004 9:54 Comments ||
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#8
Nothing to see here, just Dear Leader channeling the Great Leader (eternal president).
The ministerâs speech came after North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il and top army officers made a midnight visit to a mausoleum where the embalmed body of Kim Il-Sung has been lying in state. Kim Il-Sung governed the Stalinist country for 46 years until his death by building a personality cult around him and his family. North Koreans still call their deceased leader âeternal president.â |
Posted by: RWV ||
07/09/2004 10:46 Comments ||
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#9
Heard Dear Leader shot an 18 yesterday. Not bad for 18 holes.
Happy's Kimmie's got a short game! |
Posted by: Raj ||
07/09/2004 12:38 Comments ||
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#10
He got a hole-in-one on the Windmill? Whoa, now I'm jealous! |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 12:46 Comments ||
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#11
word is that his Caddy OddJob kicked it in for him |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 12:48 Comments ||
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#12
Lol! No make that LMAO!!! |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 12:58 Comments ||
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#13
A caddie checked his bag, Driver, L wedge and a putter. Putters like new! |
Posted by: Lucky ||
07/09/2004 13:00 Comments ||
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#14
I'm surprised that he wasn't observe 10 year anniversary? Or was Dad a big golfer too?
BTW: I've had cousins point out to me the exact spot their Dad my Uncle died on a golf course.
"Yep, Tom right here, a little to the left of the oak"
Jeez.....
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 13:59 Comments ||
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#15
I was a greenskeeper for a coupla years in HS. There were two spots that I was regularly asked to point out - local legend was attached: where the two people who had been struck by lightening, and fried, were hit. Golfers are a strange brew, lol! |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 14:05 Comments ||
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#16
Personal to PD....
I've buried two dogs on golf courses with the help of greenskeepers. :)
Naturally they are located (seriously) at two par 5s with bends in them. They are in the bends. :)
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 17:05 Comments ||
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Europe |
France âforming ethnic ghettoesâ
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The study by the French domestic intelligence services found many areas were populated by poor, young French of north African immigrant backgrounds. The report, leaked to Le Monde newspaper, found at least half of the 630 suburbs it looked at had already become separate ethnic communities. The report warned the ghettoes, cut off from mainstream French society, could encourage radical Islam to take root. The intelligence service report deals with an extremely sensitive issue for France: just how bad the sense of alienation has become in the suburbs, among the French-born children of north African immigrant background.
The report - given to the interior minister, Dominique de Villepin - concludes that the situation is actually worse than previously thought. Of the suburbs studied, the report says at least half could already be called ghettoes, whose inhabitants felt rejected by, and were in turn rejecting, mainstream French society. The areas studied were chosen because they already had problems with unemployment, crime and violence, had a high proportion of immigrant families - some still practising polygamy - plus a growing number of Islamic prayer rooms as well as frequent anti-Western and anti-Semitic graffiti. The intelligence services noted that many families of immigrant origin were rejecting French values and even the French language, following instead more traditional ways of life associated with their ethnic origin - including an increasing religious radicalisation among young Muslims, and a backlash against young Muslim women who wore Western clothing.
[snip]
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Posted by: Chuck Simmins ||
07/09/2004 8:24:44 PM ||
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#1
Send their asses back to Algeria/North Africa, but wait, that would be to simple.
Oh yea and Villepin you are a cockroach loving, weasle blowing, turd. |
Posted by: FlameBait93268 ||
07/10/2004 1:43 Comments ||
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#2
Still practising polygamy...
Don't see where that's a problem for the French-in their minds, it's a matter of sophistication. Remember how proud they were that the widow and the mistress showed up at a certain president's funeral?
Backlash against women, rejecting French language, increasing religious radicalization-France, you better WAKE UP. |
Posted by: jules 2 ||
07/10/2004 8:16 Comments ||
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Increased terror threat in the Netherlands....
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Dutch authorities are placing guard posts near potential terrorist targets in the Netherlands this Friday evening . The AIVD (Dutch intelligence service) has indications that radical muslims could be preparing attacks....
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Posted by: Dutchgeek ||
07/09/2004 5:35:12 PM ||
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#1
Since my German sucks, my Dutch is even worse. Can't understand anything except they think muslim terrorists will go after "soft targets." Tunnels, apparently (probably among other things). They name Schipol (Amsterdam airport, IIRC), Rotterdam, and another tunnel.
Anybody read Dutch? TGA, can you make it out? (To this American at least, Dutch sort of resembles German but with lots of double vowels. :-p)
Nice to see somebody in Europe getting it. I wish them luck. (And hope their courts don't turn loose anyone they capture.) |
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
07/09/2004 20:46 Comments ||
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Catholic Church equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism
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This is for all you good Catholics out there, and for Anti. Faisal wonât accept the source as valid anyway. Hat-tip LGF
The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals this week. The announcement was made at a gathering of religious, academic and other leading Jewish and Catholic figures in Buenos Aires. "We oppose anti-Semitism in any way and form, including anti-Zionism that has become of late a manifestation of anti-Semitism," the statement said. This is the first time that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism have been equated by the Catholic Church. The statement also includes a stern condemnation of terrorism, particularly terror in the name of faith. "Terror is a sin against man and against God. Fundamentalist terrorism in the name of God has no justification and cannot be justified."
I guess this means Kerry no longer considers Arafat to be a statesman?
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Posted by: trailing wife ||
07/09/2004 2:27:39 PM ||
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#1
Our same Jewish friends who went overboard on fears over "The Passion of the Christ" should acknowledge this. I'm Catholic, not Jewish, but I'd fight for Israel |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 19:54 Comments ||
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#2
Dear Frank G.,
Thank you for your welcome earlier. I have been very happy to be wrong about my concerns over the "Passion." And, as the child of an Israeli, I must say I've been awed by the strong support of so many Americans for Israel in these troubled times (ok, so all times are troubled, more or less...but these happen to be my times!)
Thank you all!! |
Posted by: trailing wife ||
07/09/2004 21:24 Comments ||
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#3
Frank, well stated. It was liberal Jews, many that do not even support Israel in her time of need which blasted Mel Gibson on political grounds.
This move by the Church was long over due, but welcome! |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 21:36 Comments ||
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#4
I wouldn't go so far, Mark - conservative talk show host Steve Malzberg was similarly unhappy about the movie, due to the comments of Mel's father, but I plan to inform him of this revelation tonight ^^ |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/09/2004 21:50 Comments ||
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#5
I know, Mel's father was very wrong, but he is not Mel.
The bottom line is the Islamists, neo-nazis and every other crack pot hate group has been using 'anti-Zionism as a mask for blatant Jew hating. |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 21:58 Comments ||
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#6
no wish to rekindle the "passion" hoopla, but TW, you're welcome, and as a Christian (even as flawed/lapsed as I am) one should do no less. Israel: the ONLY democracy in the ME (depending on Iraq's outcome, that could change) that allows Jews and Arabs to vote. THE ONLY! Counter that with anti-zionist hate speech Antiwar and Faisal...assholes |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 22:09 Comments ||
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#7
Mark, I've heard that Mel reportedly told friends of his personal exasperation with his dad's antics, so he somehow takes the nuanced position of "I disagree with my dad, I just won't call him out on it in public" :-P |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/09/2004 22:31 Comments ||
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#8
[Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL ||
07/09/2004 22:52 Comments ||
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#9
'anti-war'... you and your Jew hating leftist horde would gladly welcome Islamic terrorist gangs butchering every Israeli.
Go protest something, if you can stand long enough after consuming your daily quota of illegal drugs. |
Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 22:58 Comments ||
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#10
antiwar, you sound sexy...... |
Posted by: Evil Jack ||
07/09/2004 23:03 Comments ||
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#11
in a stupid "I like to be hit - make me wear a burqa" way? |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 23:13 Comments ||
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#12
true Frank G., but at least the burqa will never make her look fat......... |
Posted by: Evil Jack ||
07/09/2004 23:16 Comments ||
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#13
Antiwar - why don't you and the rest of the Hitler Youth crawl back under your rock. |
Posted by: A Jackson ||
07/09/2004 23:17 Comments ||
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#14
Where's OldSpook! Someone give him a "ping"! (That is, send this article to him!) |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/09/2004 23:30 Comments ||
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#15
What we should be suprized that the lefties hate jews? I though it was a forgone conclusion that the left/socialist/commies hated jews?
antiwar don't get in the way of any dozer blades. |
Posted by: FlameBait93268 ||
07/09/2004 23:38 Comments ||
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#16
I'm glad to hear that the Catholic church has finally made this distinction- however, my home church has already been saying this for a very long time.....what took them so long? I'm a little ignorant here- someone plse enlighten me on this issue. |
Posted by: Curious ||
07/09/2004 23:46 Comments ||
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#17
Either hard-lefties in the higher ranks, or hard deliberation on the subject ...
(See its ruminations on Iraq and Abu Ghraib - the Pope's anti-war stance was a "prudential judgement", and you weren't nearly as out-of-line as pro-abortion politicians are for disagreeing.) |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/09/2004 23:48 Comments ||
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#18
Admittedly, my church has made serious errors in the past. We can only appreciate when they do the right thing, and demand they continue (on this and other issues). No-one should accept anything less, and I certainly don't. Wouldn't it be refreshing to hear a CAIR official or Saudi royal say the same? |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 23:52 Comments ||
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#19
When I hear these words promulgated by the Vatican secretary of state, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, or is it the other way around) or His Holiness Pope John Paul II -- that is, literally ex cathedra, "from the seat" -- I will be reaffirmed in my belief in a One True God who is the r0x0rz XD |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/10/2004 0:00 Comments ||
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#20
oh... |
Posted by: muck4doo ||
07/10/2004 0:49 Comments ||
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#21
The Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism.
Finally. GOOD! But that's only the beginning. A few presidents and prime ministers need to step up to the plate and do the same. |
Posted by: jules 2 ||
07/10/2004 8:28 Comments ||
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#22
Zionism is against zionists whether they be jews or christians
Not all jews or christians are zionists
Therefore being anti zionist is not the same as being anti jew (a person can be both though)
I am not antijew just antizionist whether zionist is christian or jew.
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Posted by: Antiwar ||
07/09/2004 22:52 Comments ||
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Yeslam bin Laden would never turn his bro in
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A half-brother of Osama bin Laden said in a television interview he never thinks of whether to turn in the al-Qaida leader and questioned which court would try him. Asked hypothetically whether he would turn in the al-Qaeda leader, Yeslam Binladin replied: "What do you think? Would you turn in your brother? Or half brother? Tell me. I put the question back to you. You answer it."
In the testy exchange broadcast Friday on the "Today" show, NBCâs Matt Lauer responded by saying that someone accused of murdering thousands should have their day in court, to which Binladin agreed. He then asked "Which court?" when Lauer again questioned whether Binladin would turn in his brother. "We will go in circles if you want to continue the question," Binladin said. More of the interview was scheduled to air on "Dateline" Friday night. Binladin, a Swiss banker who spells his name differently from his half-brother, previously has said he condemns his brotherâs actions. Binladin has been under scrutiny in France and Switzerland during a money-laundering investigation but has never been charged.
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 1:18:00 PM ||
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#1
What a lovely family.
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Posted by: ex-lib ||
07/09/2004 14:24 Comments ||
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#2
In the testy exchange broadcast Friday on the "Today" show, NBCâs Matt Lauer responded by saying that someone accused of murdering thousands should have their day in court, to which Binladin agreed.
He then asked "Which court?" when Lauer again questioned whether Binladin would turn in his brother.
"We will go in circles if you want to continue the question," Binladin said.
This only serves to put into plain view for all to see the futility of treating terrorism as a law enforcement matter. |
Posted by: Bomb-a-rama ||
07/09/2004 15:38 Comments ||
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Belgian to come home after Guantanamo deal
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A Belgian man being held in Saudi Arabia is to return home following a secret deal between the Saudi authorities and the US over prisoners at the Guantanamo army base on the island of Cuba, it was reported on Thursday.
Susssssh! It's a secret, don't tell anyone! | Flemish newspaper De Morgen reported that Saudis are to exchange eight prisoners held in Saudi Arabia, including Belgian Raf Schyvens, for five Saudi members of the Al Qaeda network, who are currently imprisoned at Guantanamo. Despite the fact that it will benefit from the return of one of its citizens, Belgium did not support the US-Saudi deal. The Saudi government has an extremely poor human rights record and it is not known how the Guantanamo prisoners will be treated when they arrive back in their home country.
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Posted by: Steve ||
07/09/2004 10:41:53 AM ||
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#1
They'll get the usual intense interrogation from Nayef's minions:
"Cake or Death?" |
Posted by: .com ||
07/09/2004 13:16 Comments ||
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#2
Thought he might be one of the famous "alk runners". Then again, seeing it's Saudi, he might be. This is from our friends at Amnesia International.
On 4 February, the Minister of Interior, Prince Naif bin 'Abdul 'Aziz,
announced on Saudi Arabian television that William Sampson, Alexander Mitchell
and Raf Schyvens were under arrest and that they had ''confessed'' to bombings
in Riyadh. The bombings on 17 and 22 November 2000 resulted in the death of one
man and injury to many others. The announcement was followed by film footage of
the three men showing William Sampson and Alexander Mitchell 'confessing' to
having carried out the bombings, and adding that Raf Schyvens was also involved
in one of the bombings. |
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/09/2004 16:54 Comments ||
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Sleep well tonight, France is on guard!
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Two-year-old twins from the UK had their plastic toy swords seized at a French airport, say their parents. Olivia and Eva Ryan, from Luton, Beds, were waiting with their parents to check in at Charles de Gaulle Airport after a trip to EuroDisney. The children's father, Peter Ryan, said French officials classed the swords as replica weapons.
I classify France as a replica country | He said the family tried to stress they went with Peter Pan outfits and would be difficult to replace. Mr Ryan told the BBC: "When the swords were taken away the children burst into tears. "She (my partner) was absolutely furious. But I tended to let it go because I do work at airports and thought 'we'll get two swords when we get home'. We get through customs, and you've got a gift shop selling large die-cast metal 11in Eiffel Tower spikes."
With nice sharp points, but they're of a French landmark, so it's ok. | Mr Ryan said he understood the need for security, but felt these officials went too far. "I think it was a little bit of an over-reaction to these toy swords, and an under-reaction to the Eiffel Towers and the bottles of alcohol available after the check-in, " he said.
Well, with US airport security taking away nail clippers and strip searching little old ladies, we shouldn't be surprised. |
A spokesman for Charles De Gaulle Airport refused to comment on the incident.
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Posted by: Steve ||
07/09/2004 10:08:11 AM ||
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#1
Well, with US airport security taking away nail clippers
The involuntary nail clipper removal effort is actually a clever plot to stockpile strategic metals and rare fungus for the coming era of low sense.
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 10:39 Comments ||
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#2
Yeah, that sucks folks, but at least the airport didn't collapse on top of you, so it could've been worse. |
Posted by: tu3031 ||
07/09/2004 10:41 Comments ||
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#3
It's just because they were English children. If they had been 25 year old bearded jihadis with box cutters, the Frogs would have wished them well and sent them on their way. What a waste of oxygen. |
Posted by: RWV ||
07/09/2004 10:41 Comments ||
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#4
I believe nail clippers are now allowed on flights. But I have one better. I recently flew Business Class out of De Gaulle (Roissy) and after the brutal French security check where I was asked if I had any "sharp objects" I replied "only my rapier wit" and was summarily dismissed to a small tent where I was frisked and stripped. Okay, fun at any price. But at the lounge inside security I was offered dinner and used (switch off suprise meter)perfectly fine sterling silver dinnerware. |
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
07/09/2004 10:51 Comments ||
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#5
Isn't there some kind of mental illness associated with mindlessly following "zero tolerance" laws?
Perhaps the frontal lobe of their brain, which controls judgement, has been damaged. Large amounts of alcohol can impair judgement for up to six months, as an example. |
Posted by: Anonymoose ||
07/09/2004 11:06 Comments ||
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#6
What gets me is that...not only were they children, but girls at that! Man, the Euroweenies are afraid of lil' British girls w/ plastic swords now, eh? Of course, some of the U.S. searches/seizures are just as mind numbing in the name of P.C. and not profiling people. Last year, I actually saw the security people in Jacksonville, FL (would've thought at least some sort of reasoning ability there) stop "randomly" a UNIFORMED US soldier to frisk him! I should've said something to him (Like, Hey thanks for protecting this guy's "right" to search you w/o suspicion) on the way onto the plane, but didn't get a chance, as they wisked him away a little bit to frisk/question him. |
Posted by: BA ||
07/09/2004 11:36 Comments ||
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#7
It's almost six hundred years since Agincourt, and these guys are still scared shitless of any English person with a sword.
I am impressed, though, that the French airport officials did not simply surrender on the spot. One of them must have been descended from Jeanne D'Arc. |
Posted by: Matt ||
07/09/2004 11:55 Comments ||
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#8
I replied "only my rapier wit" and was summarily dismissed to a small tent where I was frisked and stripped. Okay, fun at any price.
LOL. I half believe you!
You should have replied "Only my rapier like rapier"
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 14:01 Comments ||
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#9
I was in uniform w/ID card and everything and got frisked at both Charlotte and Detroit's airports; the security folks were just doing their job but it was still pretty silly imho. |
Posted by: Jarhead ||
07/09/2004 16:35 Comments ||
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#10
Matt
Joan d'Arc died a virgin. It is more probable that the aiport officials descended from the guys who crushed Lord Talbott at Castillon. |
Posted by: JFM ||
07/09/2004 18:08 Comments ||
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#11
JFM - Touche. And I hope that one day some descendants of the men who fought at Castillon and Verdun will come forward to take their place in the WOT. |
Posted by: Matt ||
07/09/2004 19:48 Comments ||
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#12
#9 Jarhead...thanks for your service! My point was somewhat about a uniformed officer, but it was more about the P.C. s#it we put up with by NOT profiling. Last I read, all the terrorists that I know of (with the exception of Ireland in the 80s) in recent history have been MUSLIM, and generally younger males (not including the Paleos sending women homicide bombers into Israel). I'm afraid that we may be winning the war abroad, but losing it here at home, with P.C. reigning! Until this country wakes up and realizes that these "lunatic fringes" (as Aris calls them) are not fringes, but what the mainstream Muslims believe, although, most of them don't act on it, we're not aware of "who are enemy truly is." |
Posted by: BA ||
07/09/2004 23:23 Comments ||
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France to Shift to High Gear Fighting Islamic Fascism Racism
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Amid concerns over mounting xenophobic violence, French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin will summon regional leaders in September to draw up measures to combat racism and anti-Semitism, the government said Friday. A day after President Jacques Chirac urged renewed efforts against "the darkest side of human nature," Raffarin decided to assemble all local prefects for a strategy session. The latest sign of concern coincided with the leak of part of an official report noting a sharp rise in religious and ethnic tensions in state schools, mostly from Muslim youths trying to impose Islamist values and reject Western ways. Government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope said the September meeting would toughen the official reaction to racist crimes. Anti-Semitic violence and neo-Nazi profanations of cemeteries -- Jewish, Muslim and Christian -- have risen in recent months. "This will be the occasion for the interior minister to announce a series of very concrete measures," he said without giving details. "In this area, weâll shift into high gear."
In his speech, Chirac urged police and local officials to crack down harder on hate crime and said state prosecutors should appeal against any lenient sentences handed down for racist, anti-Semitic or homophobic violence. Cope said officials should also register hate crimes more thoroughly and do more to help their victims. September was already shaping up as a tense time in France because an official ban on Muslim headscarves is due to be imposed when schools reopen. Islamic activists have started campaigning to convince schoolgirls to defy the ban. The draft Education Ministry report, leaked to Le Figaro and Le Monde newspapers, said a survey of 61 high schools in disadvantaged neighborhoods showed both Muslim and Jewish pupils increasingly made religious demands at school.
These pupils increasingly refused to eat meat if it was not slaughtered by halal or kosher rules and skipped classes on Fridays or Saturdays for religious services. During the Ramadan fasting month, pious Muslim pupils exerted so much pressure for all Muslims to stop eating that even some non-Muslim pupils joined in to avoid standing out. In one primary school, Muslim children insisted only they could use one sink in the lavatories while "the French" had to use the other, the report said. A local Muslim activist asked another school to build separate locker rooms for Muslims and Christians because "a circumcised boy cannot get undressed next to an impure one." More and more mothers are now so fully veiled they cannot be identified, it said, forcing one school to use a windowless room where they have to uncover their faces to a woman teacher in order to be allowed to pick up their children.
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Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
07/09/2004 10:18:01 AM ||
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#1
Well the first thing they could do to help would be to quit their national policy of anti-semitism which predates this century. I can just see them now as jews and "travelers" we loaded on the box cars for NAZI extermination camps cherring the ss guards. They could quit coddling "north africans" and semd them back home for good when they are caught giving "kill whitey" sermons. Finally they can't be homophobes. They have Chirac don't they? |
Posted by: FlameBait93268 ||
07/09/2004 17:29 Comments ||
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#2
Yep, to date this year antisemitic attacks in France have already exceeded the amount for the entire year of 2003.
Ie: nearly doubled this year.
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=1603715
I wonder WHO could be responsible for that?
If you demographically broke down those responsible for the antisemitic acts would it be
a) mixed?
b) buddhists?
c) presbyterians?
d) islamists? |
Posted by: Anon1 ||
07/10/2004 0:16 Comments ||
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Cyprus arrests Pakistani students
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Ten Pakistani yoots youths have been arrested in Cyprus on national security grounds, the countryâs interior minister said. The students were arrested during a police swoop in Larnaca, on the south-east coast, on Wednesday. Lawyers said one of the Pakistanis had already been deported, with other orders pending. The director of the college they were attending said they were excellent students and that their parents were "furious" at the arrests. Cypriot Interior Minister Andreas Christou said: "I can confirm that instructions were given for their arrest for security reasons, nothing more."
Government spokesman, Kypros Chrysostomides, said: "Police worked on information received and took those measures dictated by the circumstances of top security and terrorism." He said the "letter of the law" had been followed in the arrests. The local Politis newspaper reported that the students were detained after overseas sources told Cypriot authorities the students were suspected of belonging to al-Qaeda. The Pakistanis were attending the Intercollege school - its director, Nicos Nicolaou, said they were "excellent students". A British friend of one of the arrested students told the AFP news agency the Pakistanis did not know each other well. "Nobody understands why they are being held because of links to terrorism," the friend said. In Cyprus, deportations can be carried out without court appearances.
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 8:43:45 AM ||
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General hits out at âfolly of Blairâs military cutbacks
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Friday, 9th July 2004
GETHIN CHAMBERLAIN AND JAMES KIRKUP
Key points
⢠Claims military cutbacks will increase risk of friendly fire
⢠Rosyth say they need to gain contracts to divert closure
⢠Defence Secretary is expected to announce a forces shake-up
Key quote "He has embarked on a greater series of campaigns than any prime minister in recent history. Every time he does that, it is the soldiers, sailors and airmen that bail him out." - Lieutenant General Sir John MacMillan
Story in full ONE of Scotlandâs most distinguished former soldiers has launched a blistering attack on Tony Blair, accusing the Prime Minister of folly for planning defence cuts at a time when the country is so heavily committed to military campaigns.
Lieutenant General Sir John MacMillan, the former General Officer Commanding, Scotland, said the plans to reduce military strength would have a devastating knock-on effect, exposing troops to greater dangers, including an increased risk of friendly fire. And with the government due to announce cuts that are expected to include the loss of at least one Scottish regiment, possibly two, Gen MacMillan questioned whether the risk to Britainâs ability to deal with future threats had been properly thought through. His comments came as defence sources told The Scotsman that Rosyth dockyard faces massive redundancies and even closure if Gordon Brown, the Chancellor, does not find more money for the industry. Worried Scottish Labour MPs have secured a meeting with Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, next Tuesday to voice their concerns over the proposed cuts.
And last night Gen MacMillan, Scotlandâs most senior soldier until he retired in 1991, weighed into the campaign to save the threatened regiments with a broadside against Mr Blair. He said the Prime Minister had committed British forces to war during his leadership more heavily than at any time since 1945. "Never can a government department have done more to rescue a prime minister from his folly than the Ministry of Defence," he said. "He has embarked on a greater series of campaigns than any prime minister in recent history. Every time he does that, it is the soldiers, sailors and airmen that bail him out." "Those who have lost their lives in conflicts entered into by this government are unable to speak for themselves, but the rate of operational deployment by all three services in the past ten years has been far beyond anything that has occurred since 1945.
I vote for the following as key quote:
"Gratitude alone should make defence cuts unthinkable at such a time.
And here comes the real key point:
"Only the most cynical government would say with one breath that we are involved in a war on terror, and at the same time reduce the armed forces to a state where there is no flexibility at all in their budget to prepare for the development of this very real threat."
Gen MacMillan said the number of operational tours that soldiers were now expected to carry out had a major impact on training time, "which leads to the risk of errors such as casualties from friendly fire, and to the pressures from families to cut short a career which puts service before the duties of a parent or husband". That in turn led to a need for training more recruits, a vicious circle that was completed when a lack of funds then prevented the recruits being trained.
"The same government has no doubt conducted a threat appraisal, and decided that all foreseen dangers are covered," he continued. "Did they foresee the invasion of Kuwait, the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, or the need to intervene in Afghanistan or the latest Iraq war?" he asked. "How can they be sure that the unexpected is now covered? The same government will no doubt call for the only men and women who are not subject to the maximum working hours directive, and are not permitted to strike, when the next period of industrial disruption breaks about their ears." Military sources have told The Scotsman that the Royal Scots and the Highlanders are at greatest risk in the cuts, which are due to be announced next week. There have also been warnings from senior officers that all of Scotlandâs regiments may have to be rolled up into one super regiment. But last night defence sources revealed that the Rosyth dockyard is also under threat.
The Chancellor has been warned that Rosythâs order book is dangerously thin after current contracts are completed later this year. Executives at Babcock, the yardâs owners, and workers at the yard believe that Rosyth would need to win a contract to overhaul HMS Richmond and at least four others like it to avert potential closure, even though the MoD has recently agreed to share some of the yardâs operating costs. "Some job losses are pretty much inevitable. What weâre talking about is outright closure," said a source close to the debate about Rosythâs future. Labour MPs and trade unions have been putting pressure on Mr Brown, whose own Dunfermline East constituency is home to many of Rosythâs 1,800 workers, to find more cash for defence in next weekâs spending review.
While many at the Fife yard had hoped that a major contract to participate in building the Royal Navyâs next generation of aircraft carriers would secure Rosythâs future, industry insiders are warning that the work on the carriers may come too late to save the yard. Wrangling over the contract to build the new carriers between the Ministry of Defence and the prime contractor, BAE Systems, means Rosyth is unlikely to see any work until 2007 at the earliest. Some in the defence industry even fear that a combination of spending cuts and problems agreeing the specifications of the carriers could push back the start of construction even further. The Transport and General Workersâ Union, which represents many of the Rosyth workforce, last night said there are "real fears" for the yard because of the gap in the order book.
"The protracted wrangling over the final details of the aircraft carrier contract is threatening to open up a hole in Rosythâs workload causing massive and unnecessary redundancies," said Jack Dromey, the TGWUâs deputy general secretary. "The government should act now to give the go-ahead for the carrier order and for work to Rosyth to tide the yard over until that carrier order starts." Following Mondayâs spending review, Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, is expected to announce a wide-ranging shake-up of the armed forces, and experts predict the Royal Navy may suffer particularly badly. A tighter budget will add impetus to a trend within the MoD towards a slimmed-down navy, part of the movement toward a so-called "network-enabled" military based on hi-tech weapons and communications systems.
You mean like the ones they want to sell China?
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Posted by: Zenster ||
07/09/2004 4:52:43 AM ||
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Home Front: Politix |
Senate report blast CIA intel on Iraq
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The CIA failed to penetrate Saddam Husseinâs regime sufficiently before the war to find out what weapons Iraq possessed, and agency analysts applied faulty logic to the sketchy information they did have to conclude Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, a Senate committee report due out today says. On the eve of the scheduled release of the report highly critical of his agency, CIA Director George Tenet bade an emotional farewell to agency employees Thursday, calling the criticism "the nature of a tough, essential business."
Though the report focuses on the CIA and does not discuss the White House role, Senate Democrats charge that the Bush administration is also to blame for overplaying shaky prewar intelligence on Iraq. Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, the No. 2 Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said Thursday that a newly declassified CIA finding shows that the administration exaggerated prewar reports asserting links between al-Qaeda and Saddamâs regime. The 560-page Senate Intelligence Committee report was described in broad terms by 10 officials with knowledge of its contents, including committee members, staffers and U.S. intelligence officials. The aides and intelligence officials requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject. The report examines the intelligence gathering process on Iraq, including the failure to find any of the chemical and biological weapons that the CIA said Saddam possessed. Those weapons were one of the justifications for war in Iraq.
"The report finds that the intelligence communityâs reporting on Iraq was not reliable," said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., a member of the panel. "That is a terrible condemnation of an agency that is our first line of defense." Among the issues explored:⢠CIA field officers who intercepted aluminum tubes bound for Iraq reported that the tubes were for use in uranium centrifuges to make nuclear bomb fuel, even though the officers had no expertise in bombmaking. Agency analysts and outside experts hired by the CIA then faced bureaucratic opposition to the suggestion that the tubes might have been bought to build ordinary rockets.
⢠Despite aggressive efforts to contact scientists involved in Iraqi weapons programs, the CIA never got further than a handful of distant relatives who repeated the official line that Iraq had gotten rid of its weapons of mass destruction. Agency spies never reached the scientists themselves.
⢠The CIAâs intelligence reporting on Iraq warned that information about its weapons was inconclusive, yet the agency went on to reach firm conclusions about those very weapons. About 80 pages of the report have been censored at CIA insistence out of security concerns, an issue that sparked intense negotiations between the committee and the CIA. "This is a matter of the American peopleâs right to know if there ever was one," said Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., vice chairman of the committee. "Itâs not going to be a happy report."
Tenetâs last day on the job is Sunday, the seven-year anniversary of his swearing-in. He departs as the second-longest-serving director, behind Allen Dulles, who served 1953-61. About 1,500 agency employees, joined by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, FBI Director Robert Mueller and others, attended a send-off ceremony Thursday at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. "These have been eventful years, filled with exhilaration and triumph, with pain and sorrow, and, yes, with questions about our performance," Tenet said.
President Bush has not chosen a successor but is considering former Navy secretary John Lehman, a member of the Sept. 11 Commission who has sharply criticized the CIA, and Rep. Porter Goss, R-Fla., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, which said the CIAâs human intelligence operations must be completely revamped.
Tenet has rejected claims that the CIAâs failures stemmed from organizational problems. That attitude prompted Pat Roberts, R-Kan., the Senate panelâs chairman, to say the CIA was "in denial." Tenet was not backing off Thursday. He told CIA employees that "if people or leaders want to take you back in a different direction, then it is your voices that must be heard to say, âWe know better, and weâre not going to put up with it.â "
Although the Senate committeeâs report was approved unanimously, committee Democrats planned to make public "additional views" to argue that Bush administration officials exaggerated Iraq intelligence and must share the blame for faulty prewar judgments. Levin said Thursday that a response by Tenet to a committee query supported that claim. In the July 1 reply, Tenet addressed repeated assertions that Sept. 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met in Prague with Iraqi intelligence officer Ahmed al-Ani five months before the terrorist attack. "Although we cannot rule it out, we are increasingly skeptical that such a meeting occurred," Tenet wrote, noting "the absence of any credible information that the April 2001 meeting occurred." Before the war, Vice President Cheney said the meeting was "pretty well confirmed." Last month, Cheney said the meeting "has never been proven; itâs never been refuted."
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 9:24:33 PM ||
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#1
If you want to get good HUMINT, you are going to have to build up a network. That will take time. You will also have to be willing to get your hands dirty. We are collectively too PC to do it right now. Thanks to the LLL congressmen who put politics above the security of this nation. |
Posted by: Alaska Paul in Fairbanks ||
07/09/2004 0:41 Comments ||
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#2
Read the report - and search the internet for what has happened to the CIA since the late 1980's.
The CIA has had its nuts in a vice since the early to mid 1990's when its HUMINT sections were virtually disassembled by budget cuts and well-meaning but stupid laws regarding dealing with "criminal" elements in what we call "Indian Country". Technical stuff came to the forefront because it coudl be done without "messy" human interactions, unsavory characters, and much lower political risks. Problem is our enemy requires much more HUMINT oriented measures to counter.
This goes back to a naivte and stupidity of the dis-assembly of the "Black Chamber" (the first US cryptologic group - who were quite proficient in codebreaking and wiretapping) because some pogue Secretary of State declared that "Gentelmen do not read each other's mail". This put the US behind the 8-ball and nearly cost us the war with Pearl Harbor - we only just recovered in time to set up the gamble at Midway by breaking the Japanese codes.
We did that to ourselves again, this time in the HUMINT field in the early-mid 1990's, and have not bothered to try to repair it until 9/11 showed just how badly Congress/Clinton had screwed up.
In the former Baathist/Sammist Iraq, or in places like Somolia, Afghanistan or Iran or North Korea, by definition anyone not ideologically driven (who would come to us anyways) will have to be gought off - and by nature those sorts are seldom clean of criminal conduct in their nation. But laws and budgets precluded us from fielding an effective fore - or even putting adequate number of analysts and resources.
And this report is a capper - it shows just how bad the CIA has been - and how they bled off talent due to budget cuts, leaving them with they best they coudl afford, instead of the very best and brightest.
It will take 5 years to even get a semblance of what we need, and 8-10 years to get an effective and operative capability in key nations and regions. And it will take budget money -something Congress seems unwilling to supply. Seems they'd rather dump it into pork projects for bases we don't need (undoubtably another "Robert Byrd" building or 2 in W.Va).
As for the Dem trying to make this another "Bash Bush" vehicle, thats all too typical - they caused the problems we are now facing with their irresponsible cuts a decade ago that are jsut now becoming evident - and instead of offering up an apology - or a solution, the immediately try to play politics and smear other for political gain.
The Democrat Pary had become despicalbe - they have put personal political power gains ahead of the good of the nation. The bastards. |
Posted by: OldSpook ||
07/09/2004 2:47 Comments ||
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#3
Sorry Oldspook, but the bloodletting really began with Stansfield Turner and the dismissal of hundreds of field men. (We didn't have a single CIA man in Afghanistan when the Russians invaded in December 1989.) He and Carter were convinced of the over-riding importance of technical intelligence. And, by the way, they didn't listen to their people when the Shah was poised to fall. |
Posted by: Tancred ||
07/09/2004 10:01 Comments ||
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Home Front: WoT |
Veteran gets rude welcome on Bainbridge (via Drudge)
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Think about the Seattle area -- Bainbridge Island to be exact -- and you think scenic views and liberal-minded tolerance. At least the killer views are still there. The bucolic island's deep reputation for civility got a gut check this week during the annual Grand Old Fourth of July celebration. That's when Jason Gilson, a 23-year-old military veteran who served in Iraq, marched in the local event. He wore his medals with pride and carried a sign that said "Veterans for Bush." Walking the parade route with his mom, younger siblings and politically conservative friends, Jason heard words from the crowd that felt like a thousand daggers to the heart."Baby killer!"
"Murderer!"
"Boooo!" I'd say they're back, but the bastards never left. | To understand why the reaction of strangers hurt so much, you must read what the young man had written in a letter from Iraq before he was disabled in an ambush: "I really miss being in the states. Some of the American public have no idea how much freedom costs and who the people are that pay that awful price. I think sometimes people just see us as nameless and faceless and not really as humans. ... A good portion of us are actually scared that when we come home, for those of us who make it back, that there will be protesters waiting for us and that is scary."
The morally superior, like the poor, will always be with us. In fact, when there is no more poverty, there will still be the morally superior... | On the Fourth, Jason faced his worst fear. It was such a public humiliation â home front insult after battlefield injury.
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Posted by: war46 ||
07/09/2004 16:11 ||
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#1
Oh yes...those militant republican women in their red, white and blue. I'm sure the folks in Bainbridge would've felt right at home with a parade of brownshirts. |
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
07/09/2004 20:07 Comments ||
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#2
I've never been confronted w/derision while wearing my uniform at home or in the airport by any LLL morons. Of course most of my travel is from the Carolinas to Detroit and back. There is always a few folks who will shake my hand - usually other vets and old ladies. I also tend to travel w/my wife and son in tow - so I'd be highly surprised if someone would be that stupid to try to confront a Marine in front of his wife & kid. It figures that this guy would get taunted by a bunch of pussies in a crowd where they think they're safe. Typical pussy tactics by pussies. |
Posted by: Jarhead ||
07/09/2004 20:59 Comments ||
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#3
I salute military personnel, especially active-duty/reserve ones who've/are serving, when I see them ... noted "Semper Fi" to a Marine I met at my school ... |
Posted by: Edward Yee ||
07/09/2004 21:38 Comments ||
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#4
Liberal-minded tolerance - what an oxymoron. Emphasis on the moron.
I never met any of these losers either. In fact, when travelling between duty stations I don't recall ever having to pay for a bite to eat at the airports. Often an old-timer or a family with a child in boot camp would intervene, and I'd get some good conversation as well. People in Chicago, Detroit, and Minneapolis were especially nice. |
Posted by: BH ||
07/09/2004 23:11 Comments ||
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#5
Jamieson's a LLL columnist for Puget Pravda the Seattle P-I. I'm surprised to the point of shock that the bastard crawled out from under Baghdad Jim McDermott's desk long enough to write even this limp criticism of his fellow moonbats.
I have the misfortune of living on Bainbridge Island, amongst all these fashionably-leftist assholes. Most of the population consists of ex-hippies and radicals who went to law school, joined blue-chip firms in Seattle and got rich, but never gave up the LLL politics. It's like Marin County with a heavier cloud cover.
The local media NEEDS to get lots of letters on this issue - the name of the Bainbridge 2x/week paper is the "Bainbridge Review", and they have a website. The executive director of the Bainbridge Chamber of Commerce also gave a half-assed "explanation" of the incident which was more of a justification, saying that this poor disabled vet was a representative of President Bush (and essentially DESERVED the abuse he got). Give the CoC a little blast as well - I sure as hell intend to. |
Posted by: Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo) ||
07/10/2004 1:45 Comments ||
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#7
Thank you for the heads up, Ricky. You bet I'm going to send a scathing letter to the editor about this shameful incident. My heart goes out to the soldier. |
Posted by: rex ||
07/10/2004 2:05 Comments ||
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#8
Natural selection is not working fast enough in the Island of Bainbridge. Somebody should help mother nature speed up the process. |
Posted by: Anonymous4724 ||
07/10/2004 3:25 Comments ||
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Sentence for gas station owner who lied in terrorism probe
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A gas station owner today got the maximum sentence of five years in prison for lying about his ties to a Yemeni sheik who raised money in Brooklyn for al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden. The judge said that Numan Maflahi, a Yemen-born U.S. citizen, lied when he told agents that he had limited contact with Sheik Abdullah Satar and no involvement in Satarâs fund raising. FBI agents had watched as Maflahi ``spent almost every waking hourââ with Satar during a 1999 fund-raising trip to New York. Agents were investigating Satar during the celebrations of the millenium. Maflahiâs attorney, Hassen Abdellah, vowed to appeal.
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Posted by: TS(vice girl) ||
07/09/2004 6:36:39 PM ||
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#1
they deported a San Diego man back to Saudi over his ties to 2 of the hijackers, as well as 2 domestic violence (yeah, I know, a Saudi beating teh wife, how surprising) incidents |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 19:09 Comments ||
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Today's Lileks Moment
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Related note: I wonder whatâs keeping Israel from taking out Iranâs nuclear bomb-making plants. Either they know itâs too late, or they know the facilities canât be destroyed by the conventional means, or they have good enough intel to know thereâs still some time and they can wait until after the election. And then theyâll go no matter who wins. If they attack now, and Bush gives them the thumbs-up, it could cut either way domestically. Kerry would have to approve or disapprove, for example. I would guess the latter, lest he want to make the UN and the IAEA look like the dithering fools they are. If Kerry approves, then heâs thrown his lot in with the cowboy-unilateralist axis, and if people want that theyâll vote for the genuine article. The far-left fringe will howl that this is all a Zionist plot to influence the election. The far-right fringe will howl that this is all a Zionist plot to influence the election. Most Americans would look at satellite photos of demolished nuke-bomb factories and think: good thing.
Weâll see. When it comes to Iran, I fear that either the bombs get bombed or the bombs get used. The latter is what I always thought would be the end result of the forces set in motion by 9/11, and I still hope I am wrong. Iâve been wrong enough to be hopeful.
Plus witches, Barbie, pizza, morphine and vodka.
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Posted by: Steve ||
07/09/2004 1:03:30 PM ||
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#1
Sharon's recent meeting with El-Baradei was a mystery to me. Why would he be talking to the UN about officially declaring Israels' nukes as part of a process to a nuclear free middle east? That route could only work if Israel could trust 1) the UN, and 2) the other arab states. Is there some strategy I'm not seeing? |
Posted by: sludj ||
07/09/2004 13:31 Comments ||
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#2
Thats a policy of long standing. Catch is, it requires Iran and Saudi to sit down with Israel and negotiate. Very unlikely to occur.
As for trusting, im sure Israel could come up with "national means of verification" |
Posted by: Liberalhawk ||
07/09/2004 13:54 Comments ||
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#3
If Israel bombed Iran nuclear facilities,Kerry would get in front of cameras in a nanosecond to endorse Israeli attack.Why?1)Show he is tough and strong on defense-esp.if someone else does it.2)Jewish voters are core Demo constituency,that has started to waver w/Bush's strong support for Israel's right to defend itself.3)He can always criticize later,saying attack was premature or something-you know,"I approved of the attack,before I didn't". |
Posted by: Stephen ||
07/09/2004 15:41 Comments ||
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#4
don't see that happening Stephen. He'd wait until polls told him which way the wind was blowing, then go mealymouth on it |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 15:55 Comments ||
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#5
...then say the opposite the next day. |
Posted by: Raj ||
07/09/2004 16:34 Comments ||
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White House warns of election attack
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The Bush administration, reflecting heightened concerns about terrorism in the United States, issued a new warning today that Al Qaeda was working toward a "large scale" attack linked to the U.S. elections. However, Tom Ridge, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said the department was not raising the color-coded alert level from its "yellow," or mid-range, status. He said that "we have more protective measures in place at yellow today than we did six months or a year ago." His warning appeared to leave FBI officials baffled.
Well, it doesn't take much to do that. | An FBI counterterrorism official said the bureau had not received any substantive new intelligence about a possible Al Qaeda attack in the United States since Director Robert S. Mueller III issued a similar warning on May 26. Ridgeâs comments, the FBI official said, are "what we said when we had our press conference, when we announced we were looking for several people and that we had [intelligence] indicating some kind of large scale attack was in the works." Speaking at a news conference, Ridge said: "Credible reporting now indicates that Al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States in an effort to disrupt our democratic process."
In issuing the warning, Ridge is walking a fine line, seeking to report on the most recent intelligence and concerns it raises, while not issuing such frequent cautions that the public becomes inured to the threat. At the same time, he faces the risk that repeated warnings that heighten public fears could appear to be taking on a political tenor when President Bush is using his conduct of the war on terrorism as an underpinning of his reelection campaign. "We lack precise knowledge about time, place and method of attack, but along with the CIA, FBI and other agencies, we are actively working to gain that knowledge," Ridge said. He said that the government had no specific, credible evidence that terrorists were targeting the Democratic National Convention, which begins two weeks from Monday in Boston, or the Republican National Convention, which takes place during the last week in August in New York City. He said that to make a political connection to his remarks would be "a wrong interpretation." "We are basically laying out before the general public the kind of information that weâve received," Ridge said. "These are not conjectures or mythical statements we are making. These are pieces of information that we can trace comfortably to sources that we deem to be credible."
Asked why he was delivering his briefings today â he had earlier spoken to members of the Senate â the secretary said that in the wake of the Madrid bombing, he thought it important to deliver such information "on a periodic basis," and that he would deliver similar reports in coming weeks and months.
The FBI counterterrorism official said that although the FBI remained concerned about a wealth of intelligence about Al Qaeda activity, it had received no specific information about a time, place or method of attack, or even that one or both of the political conventions was a target. "We donât have anything like that," the FBI official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "The election is a focal point, but to say [intelligence indicates] any time frame before the election, we just donât have that. We havenât heard anything as to who they would desire to target to influence the political process," he said.
Oh, let me make a wild guess, the PRESIDENT perhaps. | The FBI official said that while the bureau is concerned about attacks on mass transit, particularly subway cars, those fears are based on Al Qaedaâs stated interest in attacking such targets, including comments by Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to his interrogators. Also, the official said, Osama bin Laden and other senior Al Qaeda operatives are known to be exhorting their followers to launch such attacks, and to try to interfere with elections, given the impact of the Madrid attack. Soon after that attack, the new government in Spain said it would pull its troops out of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq. "Thatâs an analysis of what could happen, looking at the intelligence coming in, what happened in Madrid in March," the official said. "But thereâs no specificity to the threat."
The FBI official said authorities were still seeking to question six men and one woman identified by Mueller and Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft in their news conference. One of them is Adam Yahiye Gadahn, a Californian who is being sought in connection with possible terrorist threats against the United States. Although the FBI has no information indicating that Gadahn is connected to any specific terrorist activities, FBI officials said he has worked as a translator for Al Qaeda and that he could be helping the organization infiltrate operatives into the United States. "Heâs an individual who helped them in translating materials and other logistics, who knows his way around the United States and its culture, and is sympathetic to their cause," the FBI official said today. "He can help them with languages, and he certainly has the ability to lend them technical and logistical support that they wouldnât otherwise have." The FBI official said Gadahn is not believed to be in the United States, "but you donât want to assume that, because he could blend in and be almost anywhere. So we donât know. We are looking for him."
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 9:20:38 PM ||
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#1
That does it! I'm voting for Zapo. |
Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 10:44 Comments ||
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#2
Not me, Shipman. As a hard-core Marxist, Groucho is my man!
Personally, I don't see America reacting the same way as Spain to terrorist shenanigans around election time. I point to Afghanistan and Iraq as examples of American response. |
Posted by: SteveS ||
07/09/2004 11:15 Comments ||
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#3
Well, you may think you're going to vote for Groucho, but I'll bet your commitment is Fragilee.
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Posted by: Shipman ||
07/09/2004 14:04 Comments ||
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#4
Two days ago FOX was showing video, released via AlJiz(?), of car bomb explosions. Why?
The current rumor has been of carbomb attacks of malls, shopping plazas, or any area that has a decent crowed.
It is my thought that the video has been released to show what is going to happen. The propaganda impact must be felt by more than just the victims, as the actual amount of victims is prolly no more then a Labor Day hiway statistic.
I'd say, folks, that the cadres of brigades of the religion of political cut-throats, is ready, has been for a few years.
I'm saying, stay away from areas that are regularly crowded, use the entrances to malls and such when a crowd isn't easily anticipated. Be aware of people who may be casing such a place. Dark bearded guy, perhaps with a camera, but the targets are prolly set.
It will happen like this unless it doesn't. |
Posted by: Lucky ||
07/09/2004 14:31 Comments ||
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Binny and Aymanâs role in latest threat unclear
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Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenants, operating from hideouts suspected to be along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, are directing a Qaeda effort to launch an attack in the United States sometime this year, senior Bush administration officials said on Thursday. "What we know about this most recent information is that it is being directed from the seniormost levels of the Al Qaeda organization," said a senior official at a briefing for reporters. He added, "We know that this leadership continues to operate along the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan."
Counterterrorism officials have said for weeks that they are increasingly worried by a continuing stream of intelligence suggesting that Al Qaeda wanted to carry out a significant terror attack on United States soil this year. But until the comments of the senior administration officials on Thursday, it was not clear that Mr. bin Laden and top deputies like Ayman Zawahiri were responsible for the concern. Another senior administration official said on Thursday that the intelligence reports - apparently drawn partly from interviews with captured Qaeda members and partly from other intelligence - referred to efforts "to inflict catastrophic effects" before the election. This official said that the reports did not refer specifically to Mr. bin Ladenâs instructions or desires, but did make clear that instructions were coming from Qaeda leaders. "It sounds like a corporate effort," the official said.
Mr. bin Ladenâs precise role remains somewhat uncertain. It does not appear that he is trying to take an active leadership role in formulating a specific plan, as he did in preparations for the September 2001 attacks, an administration official said. There is evidence, the official said, that he is able to communicate with his followers, urging them to carry out operations in the name of the terror network. In the past, Mr. bin Laden has used a variety of methods to carry his messages, and he is acutely aware of American efforts to monitor his conversations. He has used couriers to carry private instructions and issued public statements that contained threats and exhortations. In addition, his followers have used cellphones and computer messages to disseminate his directives. That suggested possible targets would include New York and the Los Angeles airport, which was a target in a millennium-related plot that was foiled by the authorities in December 1999.
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Posted by: Dan Darling ||
07/09/2004 12:48:57 AM ||
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#1
The CIA cannot offer a single shred of evidence that OBL is alive. |
Posted by: Tancred ||
07/09/2004 10:12 Comments ||
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International-UN-NGOs |
Court: Israeli fence violates int'l law, must be dismantled
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The International Court of Justice will rule on Friday that the separation fence contravenes international law, that it must be dismantled, and that compensation must be paid to the Palestinian owners of property confiscated for its construction, according to documents obtained by Haaretz. The decision will be officially made public at 4 P.M. Friday under the heading, "Legal implications of the construction of the barrier in Palestinian occupied territory." The court has ruled that on the basis of the material available to it, "[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives." Fourteen votes favored the decision and the sole opponent was the American Judge, Thomas Buerghenthal. It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen, and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."
Other than the fact that it works by stopping the splodydopes. | "The construction of such a wall accordingly constitutes breaches by Israel of its various obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments." In support of Judge Buergenthal's opposition, the Dutch Judge, Pieter Kooijmans, rejected the call for all countries to act against the project. The Hague court ruled that it had jurisdiction to render an opinion on the issue of the fence. The justices conducted a lengthy analysis of the legal situation and of the history of the Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Parts of the fence constructed within the Green Line were not included in the court's decision. Most of the justices believed that in building the fence, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health. Israel violated international treaties it had signed which deal with these topics, the ruling states. "Israel is bound to comply with its obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and its obligations under international humanitarian law and international human rights law. Furthermore, it must ensure freedom of access to the Holy Places that came under its control," the justices wrote.
Curiously, there was no mention of any Paleo obligations not to kill people. | The International Court in the Dutch capital, The Hague, was asked to deliberate on the issue of the security fence by a United Nations General Assembly resolution of last December, and its decision will be presented to the world body. Prior to the release of the decision, Israeli sources said they were unsure of the court's ruling. However, European sources said that on the basis of information available to them, the legal opinion would be "negative and critical" of Israel. PA Chairman Yasser Arafat on Thursday said he had full confidence in the International Court. "I believe the court in the Hague is capable of stopping the construction of the fence that damages our people," he said in Ramallah.
"I am sure the Court will be as effective as ever!" | For its part, the Defense Ministry has carried out changes on the official map delineating the route of the fence according to the ruling of the High Court of Justice. The changes run along the section of the fence northwest of Jerusalem, and in parts near Qalqilya, Modi'in and southeast of Jerusalem near Gush Etzion. According to the map made public by the Ministry of Defense, there are many changes from the original route of the fence, and all are meant to alleviate the pressure on the Palestinian population in those areas. However, the new map also shows the intention to build the fence around the Ariel salient, linking the largest settlement in the West Bank, with Karnei Shomron and Immanuel, to the Green Line.
Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization have prepared their public relations and diplomatic offensives in anticipation of the decision. The PLO representative in the United Nations, Nasser al-Qidwa, and diplomats from Arab countries at the UN, plan to request an emergency session of the General Assembly where the results of the court's decision will be presented. It is expected that the Palestinians will seek operative application of the court's conclusions, in case Israel refuses to adopt the recommendations of the International Court. Israel has already prepared its response, assuming that the court will be critical of Israel. Israel will seek to block the issue from reaching the Security Council, with the assistance of the United States. Israel is also hoping that most EU countries will not support the Palestinian move as they opposed bringing the matter before the ICJ.
New Amb. Danforth will get to issue his first UNSC veto. |
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Posted by: Steve White ||
07/09/2004 1:42:58 AM ||
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#1
Israel.....finish building your barrier wall, if that's what you want to do. Piss on the "international court of justice". It's just another wing of the worldwide "anti-israel", "pro-arab" monster.
Thomas Jefferson would say; "Let the international court of justice enforce it's ruling." Or was it Andrew Jackson? Oh well, it doesn't matter.
Why can palestinians only be "fulfilled" if they have access to Israel? Why can't they build their own functioning economy? I'll tell you why. They've wasted all these years perfecting methods of mass murder, instead of making a better life for their people.
They've taken the billions of dollars, given in good faith, by the West, including Israel, and squandered it on explosives and weapons of every type, instead of building a better future.
Murdering innocent Israeli women and children doesn't improve the lives of palestinians one tittle. Muslims are filthy, nasty people. |
Posted by: Halfass Pete ||
07/09/2004 2:22 Comments ||
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#2
Question, is Israel party to the ICC? If not, they can tell them to roll it up, and shove it. |
Posted by: Silentbrick ||
07/09/2004 2:36 Comments ||
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#3
Tear down the wall and do a Darfur on the Palestinians. Seems the ICJ has no problem with that. |
Posted by: ed ||
07/09/2004 2:39 Comments ||
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#4
I'm with Halfass. Funny, that HWSNBN gets his definitions of "torture" and "international law" from the ICC.
Somebody clue me in---does he have a really fast web archive program, or does he simply save posts from everybody he disagrees with?
In any case, the "green line" is as much an arbitrary paleosimian crock of crap as the insistence on a return to the 1967 borders. One "do over" after another. The paleos are probably as filthy and nasty at cards as they are at booming. |
Posted by: therien ||
07/09/2004 2:49 Comments ||
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#5
Halfass--- I think that would have been Jackson, in re: the Supreme Court on the Cherokee resettlement/land grab decision. Jefferson might have said something similar, but ima not sure. |
Posted by: therien ||
07/09/2004 2:53 Comments ||
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#6
Question, is Israel party to the ICC
Israel never ratified its signature to the ICC.
Here's a UN website that lists all countries' and whether or not they ratified the ICC agreement:
Link |
Posted by: rex ||
07/09/2004 3:34 Comments ||
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#7
Who is behind this so-called "international court of justice"? The Vichy French and boys from Berlin, and they have the bold audacity issuing 'verdicts' regarding what Jews should do in order to protect themselves from nazi-like terrorists which desire to exterminate each and every Israeli?
Something is not kosher here.
Like shades of 1939 all over again lurking throughout the E.U.?
The enemy is not only the Islamist jihad boys.
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Posted by: Mark Espinola ||
07/09/2004 4:06 Comments ||
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#8
Question, is Israel party to the ICC? If not, they can tell them to roll it up, and shove it.
This isn't the ICC, it's the ICJ. Different animal, equally offensive. Check the following statement from the court's web site, "In cases of doubt as to whether the Court has jurisdiction, it is the Court itself which decides." As was said above, let 'em try to enforce it. |
Posted by: AzCat ||
07/09/2004 4:58 Comments ||
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#9
Screw it. Keep building and turn some pigs and dogs free on the "Palestinian" side.
There is and never has been a "Palestine." So this "state is a crock of cat crap. |
Posted by: FlameBait93268 ||
07/09/2004 5:24 Comments ||
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#10
[Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL ||
07/09/2004 6:20 Comments ||
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#11
The world court knows nothing about the history of Jews. I think the US should nuke the place to stop them from issuing anymore stupid decisons ! |
Posted by: Anonymous566390 ||
07/09/2004 7:46 Comments ||
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#12
the Tourette's Troll© shows her ugly face again...
Build the wall, electrify it, and doze a clear no-man's land. Shoot any Paleo or ICJ whelp that approaches it. |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 8:36 Comments ||
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#13
And just what would you have Israel do,Antwit.Why don't you just come out and say your true thoughts.All here know what your not-so-well hidden thoughts are (Antwit"The only good Jew is a dead Jew". |
Posted by: Raptor ||
07/09/2004 8:37 Comments ||
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#14
I think we should send a flight of B-52's to paleo land and let the rubble bounce. |
Posted by: djohn66 ||
07/09/2004 8:39 Comments ||
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#15
Good morning Antisemite! So nice of you to join us. |
Posted by: AllahHateMe ||
07/09/2004 8:39 Comments ||
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#16
"[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives."
I agree with this decision. People in this forum, and even Sharon himself, keep on saying the same thing. That the specific course can change. That means that this course wasn't necessary.
Liberalhawk, I believe, has also mentioned the course of the barrier as an item used as a tool in negotiations. If the question was the security of Israel it *wouldn't* have been a matter that could be negotiated.
It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."
It does. The wall, ALONG THE ROUTE CHOSEN, is NOT a border, and is thus not a tool towards the protection of a border. It's a meandering line meant to annex land as arbitrarily decided. Decided not by the question of security for Israel but by the question of *settlements* and which land was more valuable to have.
This decision of the court is positive. It doesn't condemn the idea of the barrier itself, it condemns the route chosen.
Which should be condemned. Strongly.
In any case, the "green line" is as much an arbitrary paleosimian crock of crap as the insistence on a return to the 1967 borders.
But the Green line had existed and had been mutually agreed upon. Arbitrariness is not an issue when both sides agree to said arbirtrariness.
The 1967 border may not be able to be returned to. Fine. But you must have a viable border to replace them with. This wall ain't it. This wall creates a ghetto, not a country.
Oh well, it doesn't matter. Why can palestinians only be "fulfilled" if they have access to Israel?
If by Israel you include the West Bank, then that's because they live in it.
If by Israel you *don't* include the West Bank, then the wall does far more than isolate West Bank Palestinians from Israel, it isolates pockets of West Bank Palestinians from the rest of the pockets of West Bank Palestinians.
No nation would be viable like that, even if its leaders had been sane. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 8:44 Comments ||
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#17
[Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL ||
07/09/2004 8:49 Comments ||
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#18
Ahh anti your so easy,got a cigarret. :) |
Posted by: djohn66 ||
07/09/2004 8:50 Comments ||
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#19
Sinktrap the troll. |
Posted by: JerseyMike ||
07/09/2004 9:02 Comments ||
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#20
[Off-topic or abusive comments deleted] |
Posted by: Antiwar TROLL ||
07/09/2004 9:06 Comments ||
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#21
frankly Aris, I don't give a damn about isolating the hateful tribe. Israel could build the wall along Jordan's river border and evict the seething bastards for all I care - they've lost any legitimacy and sympathy they might have had |
Posted by: Frank G ||
07/09/2004 9:46 Comments ||
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#22
It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."
Gravely. Good choice of words. No doubt the ICJ doesn't consider the jigsaw mess of human flesh left by suicide bombings of Palestinians against Jews as literally grave infringements on the rights of Israelis to live. But graves are where Jews are doomed to end up once the fences of PA suicide bombers are opened, aren't they?
If this were simply about the impropriety of the route, it wouldn't have topped the docket of this court. No, it's about scapegoating Israel while the PA commits crimes with impunity, as usual. I won't be holding my breath for the international community to come with an EFFECTIVE, alternative idea for keeping people alive. Keeping Jews alive isn't of interest to them. |
Posted by: jules 187 ||
07/09/2004 10:03 Comments ||
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#23
Frank> I'm not only considering the Palestinians' sake, but the Israeli's sake as well, when I'm calling this a non-viable border.
For peace to happen you can't have a person being able to see two walls separating his village from his nearest city, just because the neighbouring nation arbirtrarily decided that it wanted to have a protected corridor that'd pass between the lands it desired to annex (because they were valuable) and the leftovers it decided to leave them. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 10:12 Comments ||
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#24
Aris--
No matter the route, the ICJ would not find in favor of the wall. That's the upshot of this paragraph:
Most of the justices believed that in building the fence, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health. Israel violated international treaties it had signed which deal with these topics, the ruling states...
This is vague enough that the ICJ will always be able to rule against Israel. Movement to seek employment, education, and health covers pretty much everything.
Furthermore, it must ensure freedom of access to the Holy Places that came under its control," the justices wrote.
This was of course never an issue before 1967. And wouldn't have been, either. How can Israel "insure freedom of access" in the middle of a war? |
Posted by: BMN ||
07/09/2004 10:24 Comments ||
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#25
For peace to happen you can't have a person being able to see two walls separating his village from his nearest city, just because the neighbouring nation arbirtrarily decided that it wanted to have a protected corridor that'd pass between the lands it desired to annex (because they were valuable) and the leftovers it decided to leave them.
The problem with this arguement is that Isreal tried allowing the Paleostinians free movement. Suicide bombers just kept coming through, killing more people. Regardless of whether this wall sets back the peace process or not, Isreal changes it route, or the world condemns it, this wall is the right thing to do. The right thing to do isn't always the prefered option, and you know this Aris. |
Posted by: Charles ||
07/09/2004 10:46 Comments ||
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#26
Paleostinians need to be fenced out same as zoo animals need to be fenced in. |
Posted by: Anonymous5072 ||
07/09/2004 10:47 Comments ||
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#27
Fourteen votes favored the decision and the sole opponent was the American Judge, Thomas Buerghenthal.
If the US does not support the court and is not a member, why is there an American judge on this abomination? |
Posted by: RWV ||
07/09/2004 10:50 Comments ||
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#28
Aris-- the "green line" is essentially the 1949 Armistice line. It was an agreement between the Israelis and their Arab enemies (not the paleos) that delineated the West Bank and Gaza. It did not limit of define the borders of the Israeli State.
Neither did it define the limits or borders of a "Paleo" state.
But the Green line had existed and had been mutually agreed upon. Arbitrariness is not an issue when both sides agree to said arbirtrariness. When both sides agree, and then one side disagrees and tries to kill the other, then loses, then asserts the original agreement is still binding, THEN it's arbitrary.
"Paleo" ghetto or Jews being pushed into the sea... hmmm, tough call, eh?
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Posted by: therien ||
07/09/2004 11:15 Comments ||
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#29
The problem with this arguement is that Isreal tried allowing the Paleostinians free movement. Suicide bombers just kept coming through, killing more people.
If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side. A very borderlike border. :-)
A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built.
RWV> USA does support the International Court of Justice, it's the International Criminal Court that it doesn't support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice
"All states maintain the right to exempt themselves from rulings of the ICJ, and particular states that have availed themselves of this right include Argentina, China, France, Israel, Russia, and the United States.
The U.S. accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction in 1946, subject to the aformentioned right to refuse all suits, and first exercised this right following the Court's judgment in 1984 that called on it to "cease and to refrain" from the unlawful use of force against Nicaragua."
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Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 11:17 Comments ||
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#30
Aris--
If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side. A very borderlike border. :-) A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built.
I pretty much agree with you. It's just that I really doubt a "court" like the ICJ would. What do you think? |
Posted by: BMN ||
07/09/2004 11:20 Comments ||
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#31
When both sides agree, and then one side disagrees and tries to kill the other, then loses, then asserts the original agreement is still binding, THEN it's arbitrary.
I think the word you are looking for is "hypocritical", not arbitrary. Yeah, the Palestinians have scums for leaders. We know that.
That doesn't make it any less of a fact that even non-scum Palestinian would be offended by the meandering wall in the route it's being built, not just now but a hundred years from now. A wall who's purpose is not protect to Israel but to protect settlements that were created as a way to *annex* the entirety of West Bank.
Hell, even I'd be offended by people seeing that insane line and pretending it's a "border".
"Paleo" ghetto or Jews being pushed into the sea... hmmm, tough call, eh?
No, that's not the real dilemma, the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto or abandonment of Israeli settlements deep in the West Bank.
Which is not a tough call at all IMO -- the Israeli settlements there should simply be abandoned. They were only created in an effort to conquer the West Bank. If the attempted conquest has now been aborted, and people want the creation of two states existing side by side, then these settlements should likewise be aborted. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 11:30 Comments ||
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#32
BMN> I can't really know how the ICJ would have reacted. I've not studied either its history nor its underlying politics in its decision-making. Perhaps you are right and they'd have been unfair regardless. But I don't know that for sure.
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Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 11:32 Comments ||
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#33
If the wall had been put in a location where a border would exist, then you WOULDN'T need to let people through it. It'd be a border, in the sense of people in that side staying in that side, and people in this side staying in this side.
A big IF, dependent upon agreed borders, which depend upon negotiations, which depend upon securing Israel from suicide bombings.
Back in your court, Palestine. |
Posted by: jules 187 ||
07/09/2004 11:32 Comments ||
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#34
Aris, you can argue the nuances of international law (and God help us all, you will!), but the fence is staying.
All of this blathering was done before the Intifada and the WOT and the Israelis aren't going to argue with success which is no more splodeydopes!
And they don't have to listen to "reason" about borders because they've won every fight they've ever had with the Mooooslims, including wars where they gained the territory of the West Bank and Gaza.
They found out the hard way that Paleos don't respect "land for peace" deals, but they do respect this fence, which has effectively isolated them for the killers and losers they are. |
Posted by: Jen ||
07/09/2004 11:32 Comments ||
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#35
A wall is the right thing to do, simply not in the location built.Â
Why? Because you fucking say so? You strike me as a pompous ass who has no comprehension of Israeli security problems. Your kind will be blabbering and blubbering once the Paleostinians start firing rockets and such over the security fence. Meanwhile the Paleos chose terror. The Israeli response is to fence them out in an
effective way which means to *try* to have Israeli Jews out of accurate rocket
range. You want to play a juvenile game of pretend that Israel should have the fence on the Greenline and leave hundreds of thousand
of Jews outside the fence. This will not happen and is the price the Paleos are paying for their terrorism. Which poll after poll show the
Paleostinian populace supporting. They love their murderous Jihadis and now must
pay the price. Screw 'em and their dysfunctional, murderous culture that springs
from the murderous Koran of the murderous pedophile prophet Muhammad.
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Posted by: Anonymous5072 ||
07/09/2004 11:34 Comments ||
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#36
Aris--
If the attempted conquest has now been aborted, and people want the creation of two states existing side by side, then these settlements should likewise be aborted.
My argument has always been that the Palestinians should have statehood forced upon them whether they (or, particularly, their leaders) want it or not. I assume impending statehood, whether formally declared or not, is what's behind the recent revolt (perhaps too strong a word?--maybe "split" is better?) in the PA ranks.
If abandoning settlements is what is necessary to do that, I am 100% in favor of it. |
Posted by: BMN ||
07/09/2004 11:35 Comments ||
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#37
BTW, I don't mean to say that Israel ought to abandon 100% of the West Bank. I mean that it ought to have militarily defensible borders. That could well mean some settlements must go. |
Posted by: BMN ||
07/09/2004 11:37 Comments ||
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#38
jules> A big IF, dependent upon agreed borders, which depend upon negotiations, which depend upon securing Israel from suicide bombings.
The whole idea of the wall should have been the enforcement of a border. Such an enforcement would *not* have required negotiations. It would be the creation of a defacto border which would however have been sanely drawn so as to be accepted by an *eventual* likewise sane Palestinian government, and which in the meantime would be defensible enough.
This wall as drawn satisfies neither criterion -- it's neither a border that a sane Palestinian could accept as legitimate, and I hear that its enormous length (due to it being meandering as I believe I have mentioned) itself makes it mostly indefensible.
but the fence is staying
If the fence stays as drawn, then so will the war.
Perhaps Israel does have the moral right to recarve (and fortify) a border significantly different than the Green Line, but it doesn't have the moral right to enclave a population and pretend it's creating a border instead, when in reality it's creating an apartheid, enclosing people that'd have no right to vote on the entity governing their lives. |
Posted by: Aris Katsaris ||
07/09/2004 11:42 Comments ||
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#39
ARIS No, that's not the real dilemma, the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto or abandonment of Israeli settlements deep in the West Bank. Which is not a tough call at all IMO -- the Israeli settlements there should simply be abandoned. And how about Jewish populations that are very close to Israel proper? I hope you know that 90% of West Bank Jews live very close to the Greenline. No way should these people be on the wrong side of the security fence. the real dilemma is Paleo ghetto The Paleostinians make their own ghettos just fine. Same as the Muslim Arab settlement blocs in France, Holland, Belgium and such. Where the police dare not go. No Jewish help needed. In fact Jews were routed from Arab nations in the 1950s
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