SHOHAM FIRING RANGE, Israel (AP) -- Veterans of Israeli anti-terror units on Monday demonstrated a new gun that can fire at a target from around the corner, making it particularly effective in urban combat.
Israel plans to start using the weapon next week, U.S. forces have already begun training with it and U.S. SWAT and police teams have expressed interest in purchasing it, Amos Golan, the deviceâs developer, said at a demonstration Monday at a firing range near Tel Aviv.
"The Americans are very interested in this," Golan said. "I believe from what I have seen and heard that it can be a big success in Iraq because the Americans are dealing with an urban area there."
The U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv had no immediate comment.
Golan thought of the idea for the weapon after years of pondering a failed Israeli army operation in the West Bank during the first Palestinian uprising in the late 1980s. Several Israeli soldiers were wounded when they stormed a house through the door and were hit by automatic fire shot from inside, Golan said.
An Israeli-American company, Coral Gables, Fla.-based Corner Shot Holdings, showed how it can be fired through an exploded doorway around the corner into a house, or from a hall into a room. A soldier sees the target on a small TV screen mounted on the barrel of the gun.
Armies from 15 countries are testing the system, said Golan, a former deputy commander of Israelâs anti-terror unit.
The system is the only weapon that allows the user to stay safe around a corner and away from a target, Golan said.
The device swivels at the middle, 63 degrees to the left or right, with the stock, trigger and the small screen at the hand-held end. The entire firing mechanism, fitted with a pistol that sits over a mini-camera with a zoom lens, is located at the front end.
A lever positioned under the stock allows the user to quickly move the firing end to another position to better focus on the target.
The development of the idea took three years, and sales began three months ago. The weapon system costs between $3,000 and $5,000, depending on the components.
The device can be fitted with different kinds of pistols, including the Baretta 92, which is used by the American army, the Glock and the Colt. It can also be adapted to fit an M-16 rifle or tear gas launcher.
The camera can view between 200 and 400 yards, depending on the model. Accessories include an infrared laser illuminator, rubber bullet launcher, various lenses and a silencer. A video-out socket allows the shooter to film action in a room around the corner and transmit the images to commanders far away.
The mechanism has been patented in the United States and will be sold only to official government agencies, Golan said.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/15/2003 4:16:30 PM ||
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And the Krauts were the first to do it. Granted the curved barrel attachments would wear out rapidly but they had to be a lot cheaper
#4
Don't you young whippersnappers recall that LIFE magazine had some photos of just such a weapon (minus the TV sight) for house-to-house fighting, around the end of the WWII European campaign?
Must not have worked very well, since it disappeared from sight after the war. But the grim troopers poking that curved barrel around corners made great photos anyway.
It was not too much of a shock when National Public Radio this month decided to branch out beyond tote bags and T-shirts. What was surprising was the business: alcohol, namely NPR wine. Before this, cheese-eating surrender monkeys had to do all kinds of research to ensure the wine they guzzle was not tainted by any association with the Right.
If listeners tire of placing repeated orders, they can join the new NPR Wine Club and receive monthly packages of one NPR-labeled wine and one non-NPR wine. Too drunk or hungover to leave the house? Donât worry about it. Lie there and listen to Moaning [sic] Edition and the UPS guy will bring the booze to you. And donât worry -- the non-NPR wine is just as good as everything else we shove down your throat.
Ken Stern, executive vice president at NPR in Washington, said the wine idea came about to offer listeners a new way to help. "Thereâs NPR tote bags, NPR CDâs, clothing, T-shirts, mugs by the millions," Mr. Stern said. "Millions of people give support through donations. This is a way they can show their support in a fun way." Read: So drunk they donât even remember pledging
It is too soon to measure the public demand for the NPR wines, Mr. Stern said. "People suspected that the NPR audience was a wine-sipping audience before. Now weâll find out." And thatâs the news from NPR. Where we serve all our whines all the time.
#2
Any bets that it's FRENCH wine?
They must have zillions of cases lying around since our grass roots boycott started and of course, they're happy to help some of their enablers at NPR.
#4
No, it won't be French. The company that is doing this for NPR -- and outfit named Signature Wines -- seems to use only wineries from California and Washington State.
An excerpt from the Gospel according to St. Luke, revised and updated for the 21st century:
``And there were in the same country shepherds, abiding in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, `Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy.â
``Wal-Mart is having a sale on DVD players. Just $29 apiece. And five megapixel digital cameras are also available for $344 and up. This be a Wal-Mart exclusive. In addition, ye shall find the Bratz doll with the Funky Fashion Furniture set for a mere $28.88 apiece.
``Rejoice, ye humble tenders of sheep! I bring ye news of plentiful shopping and bargains abundant. Gleaming temples of commerce await thee, open long hours for thy convenience. And their shelves are heavy laden with wonders that shall beggar thy poor imaginings.
``Consider ye these bargains: Circuit City doth present thee a discount of $50 to $400 on all manner of large televisions, including flat screens. Free delivery doth be available. JCPenney doth sell 14-karat gold chains for half off, while Cingular doth offer 500 bonus rollover minutes on select cellphone calling plans. And at Toys Doth Be Us, ye may obtain a 35th Anniversary Elmo doll for only $5, with a purchase of $75 or more. The offer be good only so long as supplies endure.
EARLY BIRD SPECIALS
``Truly there be an awesome bounty of material treasures offered unto thee.
``But be ye warned: to claim and hold these treasures shall require of ye great sacrifice and exceeding diligence. Ye shall rise before the sun to catch the early bird specials. Ye shall traipse throughout the day, returning wearily to thine abode long after the sun has fallen from the sky.
``Ye shall find parking for thine ass and thy cart exceedingly limited, forcing thee to circle the parking lot, hunting for the man who is about to remove his ass and his cart to another place.
``Ye shall compete against thy fellow shoppers, who seek the same must-have items at the same bargain prices. This shall require of ye sharp reflexes. Also, sharp elbows.
``Nor shall this be the end of thy testing. For once all these things are done, it shall come to pass that the bills come due. And on this date, there shall be wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth throughout the land and ye shall eat naught but beans and buy naught but generic brands until well after Motherâs Day. Spouses shall bicker with one another and fathers shall wander the abode turning off lights and air conditioning, muttering that they be not made of money.
THE ULTIMATE PRIZE
``All this and more shalt thou endure. But thou shalt bear this burden gladly in the hope and longing that it shall lead ye to the ultimate prize: That thou shalt find in thy striving and straining, in thy going and coming, in thy frenzied acquisition of things, a measure of peace, some proof of love. Thou shalt seek ownership of things in the expectation that this will make ye what ye are not, give ye what ye have not, that it will fill thee as sod does a gaping hole and make thee finally and fully, complete.ââ
And when the angel had said these things, the shepherds looked from one to the other with upturned palms and confused demeanor. Finally, one of their number hesitantly raised his hand and spake.
ââForgive us, herald of the most high,ââ he said. ``Truly ye bring us word of strange and marvelous things. Yet we cannot help wondering: Is that all there is to thy good news? Just . . . shopping?ââ
Whereupon the angel stroked his chin, then looked up and snapped his fingers in the manner of one chagrined.
ââOh yes,ââ the angel said. ``There was one other thing I almost forgot. A savior was born to you down in Bethlehem.ââ
Keiko, the killer whale star of the Free Willy movies, has been buried in a secret ceremony in Norway. The six-ton whale died on Friday from suspected pneumonia in the Norwegian bay where he had been living out his days since his release from captivity. Keiko, who was about 26, was buried in a pasture near to the bay where he had attracted many tourists to visit. "We wanted to let him be at peace," said Dane Richards, one of his carers. "Heâs free now and in the wild." Er, no, heâs rotting under a cow pasture. If you wanted to return him to the wild, you would have buried him at sea. But, then you wouldnât have had any place to hold pilgrimages to.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:07:39 AM ||
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He's free now....
Lets see.. a Whale is a SEA Creature who lives in the OCEAN (you know... where there is a lot of salt water...).
So you bury him on LAND. To be pooped on by cows....
#2
Can you imagine the size of this hole to accomodate a six-ton beastie? And then the animal is going to rot away and leave a trench there as the hole collapses in (unless they found a nice sturdy coffin that would fit a six ton orca). What a waste of time and money.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 11:06 Comments ||
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From Scrappleface:
10-Year Quest to 'Free Willy' Finally Succeeds
(2003-12-13) -- A decade-long, multimillion dollar effort to 'Free Willy' has finally succeeded.
The beloved movie star killer whale, whose real name was Keiko, captured the hearts and minds of the global community as environmentalists attempted to mimic the finale of the movie by returning the captive orca to his natural environment.
"We're happy to announce that Keiko died this week of pneumonia off the coast of Norway," said a spokesman for the Free Willy-Keiko Foundation. "Although we were never able to break his co-dependency on humans we have finally succeeded in getting him to behave a bit like a wild orca again. Just like so many of his oceangoing brethren, Keiko stopped breathing and became food for scavengers. It was an intensely natural thing for a whale to do. It's really a triumph of science and human compassion."
Future donations to the Free Willy-Keiko Foundation will go toward an effort to return the Disney star, Nemo, to the wild.
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/15/2003 11:22 Comments ||
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Keiko means Lucky One in Japanese. Sadly his luck ran out. It's a sad day, no!
Got this from Zayedâs blog,If it did not copy and paste could one of you guys check-out Zâs blog and post the Bush/Chirac photo for me. I havenây been able to get the copy/paste thingy to work lately. (Original from Right Wing News)
Posted by: raptor ||
12/15/2003 8:24:23 AM ||
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I've posted two Photoshopped photos here, including the one you're mentioning. We'll save Fred's bandwidth by not posting the photo on Rantburg. Zayed's link
The capture of Saddam Hussein could make it easier to catch the worldâs other top fugitive â al-Qaida mastermind Osama bin Laden â and dampen support for the growing insurgency in Afghanistan, allied officials here said Sunday. Bin Laden is believed to be hiding in the mountainous no manâs land between Pakistan and Afghanistan, possibly feeding off the support of deeply conservative tribal villagers who share his hardline vision of Islam. That support, and the mountainous conditions, have helped him elude one of the largest dragnets in history. The one-eyed Taliban leader Mullah Omar is also on the lam, as is Hekmatyar, a former prime minister who has joined the battle against U.S. troops and the Afghan government.
Saddamâs capture "is obviously good news for the people of Iraq who suffered for so long under Saddamâs tyrannical regime and it is a warning to all the other outlaws who are at large like bin Laden, Mullah Omar and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who hopefully sooner or later will be brought to justice," Omar Samad, a spokesman for the Afghan Foreign Ministry, said. Still, the minister in charge of internal security forces warned against comparing Iraq â where it took eight months to capture the ousted leader â with Afghanistan, where the top fugitives remain at large two years after the Taliban fell. "Itâs totally different terrain, a different situation and a different social structure," Interior Minister Ali Ahmad Jalali said of the reasons bin Laden has not yet been caught. "In the tribal areas, control is very weak." Still, he said, "I think eventually they will be caught. They will not wander forever."
U.S. military spokesman Lt Col Bryan Hilferty insisted the arrest would be a help. "The fate of Saddam Hussein will increase the human intelligence the people here are already giving us as they help in the fight against the enemies of Afghanistan," he said from Bagram Air Base, U.S. military headquarters.
Taliban rebels and their al-Qaida allies have been waging an ever-fiercer campaign against U.S. troops, the Afghan government and aid workers seeking to rebuild the country. A cascade of bloodshed in recent months has forced the United Nations to pull international staff out of huge swaths of the southeast. Security officials have said they saw signs that rebels in Afghanistan were feeding off tactics employed in Iraq, targeting U.N. workers and others seen as helping the United States. Talat Masood, a Pakistani military analyst who closely follows Afghanistan, said news of Saddamâs capture would echo loudly through al-Qaida and the Talibanâs mountain lairs. "There is a psychological synergy between the resistance in Iraq and Afghanistan, so if there is any setback in Iraq it will have a ripple effect in Afghanistan," he said. "Bin Laden and his group will be on the defensive and demoralization may set in."
News of the capture rippled through the enormous Kabul tent housing a historic Afghan constitutional council, or loya jirga, with many of the 500 delegates expressing solidarity with the Iraqi people, and passing along congratulations to the United States. But on the streets of Kabul, there was a more ominous message from many ordinary Afghans. "Itâs a black day," said Mohammed Sharif, a 20-year-old student from Kabul University. "Saddam was a great holy warrior in the Islamic world and a supporter of Islam."
Even some of Afghanistanâs new Western-trained police said they were saddened to hear of the capture, despite the scenes of jubilant Iraqis celebrating Saddamâs downfall. "I donât want any Muslim to be captured by infidels," said Zulfiqar Jalali, a 27-year-old officer standing outside a police station on a traffic-congested Kabul street. "Saddam is an Iraqi and has the right to live freely in his country."
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 1:01:22 AM ||
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"I donât want any Muslim to be captured by infidels," said Zulfiqar Jalali, a 27-year-old officer standing outside a police station on a traffic-congested Kabul street. "Saddam is an Iraqi and has the right to live freely in his country."
I think we have found Kabul's village idiot, unless there is an inalienable right to feed fellow muslims into a plastic shreader.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 8:31 Comments ||
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We'll never get Binny. He's a smear on the wall of a caved-in bunker someplace.
#3
If Zulfiqar is a typical example of the Western trained "new police officer", then I don't hold out too much hope for the people of Afghanistan. "Saddam is an Iraqi and has the RIGHT to live freely..." What a f**king mind set.
#4
"Itâs a black day," said Mohammed Sharif, a 20-year-old student from Kabul University. "Saddam was a great holy warrior in the Islamic world and a supporter of Islam."
Wait. I thought he was a devoted secular tyrant who had no connection to Islamic extremism.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 9:15 Comments ||
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Heard an interesting bit of info passed by Arnaud Deborchgrave (sp?) on Fox last night. Guess he has some sat phone connections to Pakistan chieftans in the Afghan border regions. He said that he was told Mullah Omar is dejected and considering surrender to NATO forces - NOT US Forces, doesn't fancy a stay at Gitmo.
Posted by: Steve B ||
12/15/2003 10:55 Comments ||
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Afghanistan will not be free of these ambushes and murder until these NWFP areas are squeezed until they hurt. And that will not happen until Perv puts the squeeze on them. And that I do not see happening in the near future. It is too bad. Maybe his grip on power is just too tenuous to act. It is pretty disguisting. I do not like to treat things symptomatically, especially with the lives of our military personnel on the line.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
12/15/2003 22:17 Comments ||
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"Hand me that truncheon, wouldja, al-Yemeni?"
"Certainly, al-Saudi."
Sources from the Ministry of Interior say that a Saudi team of investigators is reviewing the results of investigations conducted by Yemen security authorities with Mohammad Hamdi Al-Ahdal who was detained about two weeks ago in Sanaa. Al-Ahdal, alias Abu Asim Al-Makki, is considered the top man of Al-Qaeda in Yemen, and was pursued by authorities for more than two years. BBC indicated that the investigations revealed important information including names of members and leading figures from Gulf countries. Ministry of Interior sources explained that presenting the Saudi team with results of the investigations is in compliance with the security agreement signed between Sanaa and Riyadh, and serving the mutual benefits especially in the field of security and stability. The two countries had exchanged fugitives, allegedly members of Al-Qaeda, under the same agreement.
This is called a mutual self-preservation agreement...
Meanwhile, Al-Balagh weekly newspaper reported that investigations with Al-Ahdal revealed the involvement of a number of prominent Arab personalities in supporting Al-Qaedah operations against foreign interests in Yemen. According to the same sources, Al-Ahdal was in contact with prominent personalities in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait who financed the activities of Al-Qaedah members in Yemen. Security authorities, however, refuse to divulge the names of those personalities for security reasons. The newspaper described Al-Ahdal's confessions as extremely important as it will enable the security authorities to unfold plans of the extremist groups of Al-Qaeda, and enhance the fight against terrorism.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 16:52 ||
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A security alert has been issued after the Yemeni security forces foiled a plan to attack the United Kingdom embassy in Sanaa on Friday. Militants possibly linked to al Qaeda plotted to blow up the British embassy in Yemen. The militants were arrested while filming the building in Sanaa. âI think it was very serious...,â Britainâs ambassador to Yemen, Frances Guy, told the BBC when asked about the plot. âWe are very conscious that we are a high priority target here in Yemen and we try our best on a daily basis to review our security and improve it as much as we can.â
The BBC said some 20 militants were involved in a plot to drive a truck bomb through the gates of the embassy some three months ago. After being caught filming the building, their video tape was sent to London for analysis, the BBC said. A Foreign Office spokesman in London declined to comment on details of the report, saying: âWe never comment on the security of individual buildings for good reason, but the security of our staff is paramount. âThere is not one size fits all approach to security.â
This comes after a group calling itself âal-Qaeda Yemen Branchâ had made explicit threats through a statement sent to al-Wahdawi newspaperâs website claiming responsibility for the latest attack against Shabwa governor and waned of future attacks. The number one wanted al-Qaeda element in Yemen Mohammad Hamdi al-Ahdal, who is also known as Abu Asem al-Makki, was arrested a few weeks ago after close monitoring by security forces. The arrest triggered security alerts throughout the country for possible remaining elements who may retaliate.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 16:39 ||
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A leading Saudi religious scholar, third in a row, supporting militants, has recanted and withdrawn his earlier "Fatwa" (edict), describing it as a grave mistake, a news report said. "Should have issued it under a fake name." Sheikh Ahmad Bin Hamoud Al-Khalidi revoked his Fatwa in an interview telecast by the state-run Saudi Television. Al-Khalidi was the third scholar detained by Saudi authorities this year for promoting militancy, who renounced his support for militants and condemned terrorist attacks. He is also one of the three scholars arrested by Saudi authorities last May following the Riyadh bombings for issuing Fatwas in which he had declared killing of security personnel during confrontations "halal" (permissible). Funny how being in the jug causes them to change their minds.
Earlier, Al-Khalidi had also ruled against giving information to security forces relating to the 19 suspects named by Saudi Ministry of Interior a week before the May 12 bombing. Last month, two Saudi scholars including Ali Al-Khudair and Nasir Al-Fahd had recanted their Fatwas on the Saudi Television. Al-Khalidi said that he was shocked at slowly increasing voltage by the suicide bombing at Al-Muhayya housing compound in Riyadh last month, which killed 18 people, and wounded more than 200, mostly Arabs. He said the attack was a sinful act and the bombers were not martyrs because they violated Islam by killing both Muslims and non-Muslims, who were under the protection of the State, murdering women and children, harming security and property, and distorting the image of Jihad (holy war) and Islam. "Blowing oneself up in such operations is not martyrdom, it is suicide. How can they kill Muslims, innocent people, and destroy property in the home of Islam?" Al-Khalidi said. "They should have just boomed the Jooooooos like good muslims, it would have saved me a lot of pain."
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 1:09:59 PM ||
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My whole faith in the fatwa system has been shaken severely. If you can't even believe a Muslim "holy man", who can you believe?
#4
Gentlemen! Gentlemen! You are too kind. Please, making fatwas was just a flight of fancy of my youth. I have gained much wisdom since I used to issue fatwas by the firkin. Alas, it is an art form that has fallen to hard time in Saudi er times, and should be left alone to gather dust. Heh heh.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
12/15/2003 22:24 Comments ||
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This shit rings very hollow. Put a gun to Ahmads head and squeeze, surely, the the trigger.
A drive-by shooting outside a port used by American forces wounded five foreign workers Monday, a U.S. military spokesman said. Officials said a suspect confessed to the shooting and attacks the day earlier on two U.S. convoys. The man allegedly shot at a bus carrying the workers, a Kuwaiti Interior Ministry official said. Once the man was arrested, he confessed to the shooting and the two separate attacks on the U.S. military convoys Sunday that slightly wounded four soldiers. "Yeah, I dunnit, and I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadnât been for those dammed kids!"
The Interior Ministry official said the workers were from India, Egypt and Syria, and the bus had the name of a local company on it. He said one of workers was seriously wounded. Lt. Col. Vic Harris told The Associated Press that Mondayâs shooting happened just outside the Port of Shuaiba, south of Kuwait City. U.S. forces use the port for transporting equipment. It was not clear if the foreign workers were employed by the Kuwaiti government or contracted by Americans to work in the port, Harris said. Maybe he just doesnât like furriners?
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 12:36:14 PM ||
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One of key names of Istanbul bombings in which tens of innocent people lost their lives, was captured. Suspect Fevzi Yitiz was detained in eastern province of Hakkari as entering Turkey with a false passport. It was revealed that Yitiz had prepared the bombs in a workshop he had rented earlier in Ikitelli district of Istanbul. After an reenactment in the workshop, Yitiz was transferred to the State Security Court (DGM). During his interrogation at Anti-Terrorism Department Yitiz confessed that he had prepared the bombs together with Habib A and Gulcan B both still at large. ââTwo members of the organization went to Afghanistan and held talks with Bin Ladin himself. It was Ladin who gave the order for bombings. However, we have changed the targets later,ââ he claimed. Uh huh.
Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Brilliant truncheon work! Brilliant! Notice the perfect form, the supple wrist motions!
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 10:22:21 AM ||
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Just added to the page: ''THE REAL TARGET OF PICKUP TRUCKS LADEN WITH BOMBS WAS INCIRLIK BASE''
Fevzi Yitiz, who is believed to have loaded the bombs into pickup trucks in the quadruple suicide attacks in Istanbul on November 15 and 20, gave detailed information during his interrogation at the Anti-Terrorism Unit. Noting that their real target was the Incirlik Air Base in southern province of Adana, Yitiz told the police that they had given up their plan due to tight security measures in and around the base. Yitiz also confessed that he had received military training in a camp of al-Qaida terrorist network in Afghanistan and met with its leader Osama bin Ladin. ''Ladin told us to pay careful attention not to kill innocent people during the bomb attacks. I am sorry for innocent Turkish people who died in the attacks,'' he claimed.
Well, Binny was never too concerned about innocent victims in the past, but Incirlik would have been a prime target. Still don't believe they talked to Binny unlees they were speaking through a medium.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 10:31 Comments ||
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Did he say he spoke to OSAMA bin Laden?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 10:45 Comments ||
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Hummmm, no, he's reported to have said "bin Laden". May be Binny's son, he's supposed to be in Iran now.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 11:11 Comments ||
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May be Binny's son,
Or one of the brothers, nephews, cousins or any other member of that very large family. I don't buy this bull that Osama was the only nutcase in the pile.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
12/15/2003 12:45 Comments ||
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And there's more: A Turkish Islamic militant suspected of preparing the truck bombs that killed 62 people in Istanbul last month has confessed he underwent explosives training in an al-Qaida terrorist camp in Afghanistan, an intelligence official said Monday. The confessions of Fevzi Yitiz, the most prominent suspect captured so far, may shed some light on the ties between Turkish Islamic militants and the terrorist network of Osama bin Laden. Yitiz was captured Dec. 10 as he entered Turkey from Iran, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. A Turkish court on Sunday filed terrorism charges against Yitiz for his alleged involvement in the bombings. The intelligence official said that Yitiz told interrogators that he underwent three months of training in explosives as well as martial arts in an al-Qaida camp in 1994. Yitiz also told police that two other accomplices met with bin Laden in Afghanistan in the summer of 2002 and received his blessing for the attacks, the official said.
Four suicide bomb attacks targeted two synagogues on Nov. 15. Five days later, suicide bombers attacked the British Consulate and a London-based British bank, also in Istanbul. The four suicide bombers in the synagogue attacks have been identified as Turkish nationals. "All of them trained in al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan," the intelligence official said. Thirty-two suspects, including Yitiz, have been charged in the attacks.
Sounds like he was told they met with bin Laden, they being the two who skipped town. Sure be nice to chat with them.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 15:40 Comments ||
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This is from TurkishPress.com yesterday:
SUSPECT F.Y. REENACTS (F.Y.= Fevzi Yitiz)
Suspect F.Y., who is believed to have loaded bombs into pickup trucks used in suicide attacks in Istanbul in November, was taken to his workshop on Sunday for reenactment. F.Y., who was captured as trying to flee Iran from eastern province of Hakkari with a false passport, was taken to the workshop he had rented in Ikitelli district of Istanbul. The reenactment lasted for about 20 minutes. Security forces have taken tights measures in and around the workshop.
PROVINCIAL SECURITY DIECTORATE IN ISTANBUL: IT WAS REVEALED THAT THE SUSPECT RECEIVED TRAINING ON WAR TECHNIQUES, BOMB AND HEAVY WEAPONS IN ANOTHER COUNTRY
It was revealed that suspect F.Y., who is believed to have loaded bombs into pickup trucks used in suicide attacks in Istanbul in November, had received training on war techniques, bomb making, usage of heavy weapons in a camp under the control of radical organizations in another country. Releasing a written statement, Istanbul Security Directorate Press Protocol and Public Relations recalled on Sunday that suicide attacks were staged with trucks loaded with bombs on Neve Shalom Synagogue in Beyoglu district and Beth Israel Synagogue in Sisli district of Istanbul on November 15, 2003 and British Consulate General in Beyoglu district and HSBC Bank headquarters in Istanbul on November 20, 2003. The statement said that 94 people had been transferred to Istanbul State Security Court (DGM) Chief Prosecutor's Office since November 15, 2003 and 31 of them were detained.
''A suspect was captured and taken into custody when he was entering Turkey via southeastern province of Hakkari on December 10, 2003. This person was brought from Hakkari to Istanbul,'' the statement said. It noted, ''during his interrogation, the suspect said that he had training on war techniques, bomb making, usage of heavy weapons in a camp under the control of radical organizations in an Asian country (Afghanistan) in 1994. This suspect said that he was in effort to find people who could act as suicide bomber for the organization.'' The statement said that this person was involved in bomb making in a workshop in Kucukcekmece district of Istanbul and those bombs were loaded into trucks. It stressed, ''during the search in the workshop, police seized some chemicals which were used in bomb making, and cable parts which were also used to prepare the mechanism of bombs.'' Later, F.Y. was sent to Istanbul DGM Chief Prosecutor's Office at around 11.30 local time.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 15:50 Comments ||
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Steve, what does it mean! Intering via south eastern province. Does that mean Iran. Are Iran's hands on the attack on Turkey?
"Retreat!"
France and other creditor nations are looking to strike a deal on helping Iraq reduce its foreign debt next year, the French foreign minister said Monday. He did not specify how much debt might be canceled or restructured. Dominique de Villepin said France wants to work with members of the Paris Club of creditor nations to find an appropriate level of debt that is "compatible with the financial capacities of Iraq." He was speaking at a news conference after meeting a delegation of visiting Iraqi ministers, led by the acting president of the governing council, Abdel Aziz Al-Hakim. The announcement comes a day ahead of a visit to France by former Secretary of State James A. Baker, President Bushâs new emissary to postwar Iraq. Baker is charged with trying to win international support for reconstruction, including promises to erase Iraqâs crushing burden of foreign debt. Sounds like the French already blinked.
De Villepin also said France is interested in helping Iraq build its police force. We can talk about it.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:23:31 AM ||
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aaaaahhhhhh. and so we see the point of that whole exclusion from reconstruction bids. good old fashioned arm twisting.
#2
France will forgive that portion of Saddam's debt that was used for humanitarian purposes.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 10:46 Comments ||
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#3
good old fashioned arm twisting
Well, Dubya was wrenching on ONE of their appendages, at least. Don't think it was their arm, though. The term 'short hairs' comes to mind.
Maybe if the despicable french had a few regiments of legionnaires in Iraq helping out, they might actually have something meaningful to say. Right now, they're just missing a good opportunity to keep quiet.
#6
The deal the French Government offered may be contingent to limiting Saddams interrogation? If we forgive the debts, you won't have to ask him how they were created in the first place.
Posted by: john ||
12/15/2003 12:06 Comments ||
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#7
In re the "Marshall debt": I was googling for details on war debt held by all nations, and could not find anything.
Does anybody know a good site for such info ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
12/15/2003 12:34 Comments ||
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#8
The Marshall plan was not presented as a loan - more like a grant. Not sure you will find anything under the heading "war debt". Try reparations, like when the frops and brits layed the ground for WWII with their arrogant reparations demanded of Germany after WWI.
Posted by: Dan ||
12/15/2003 13:06 Comments ||
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#9
Carl - Here's the US Aid listing for France. Note that the vast majority of the Marshal Plan funding to France was in the form of grants, not loans - so officially, they're paid up.
This is called the "Green Book" and contains everyone who's received money from the US through the US Aid (and older consolidated) Program. Note that this will not contain other funding, such as that created via legislation, I believe.
Very eye-opening stuff - and puts the lie to the zipperheads who think the US doesn't try to help damned near everywhere and everyone on the planet. Our tax dollars at work in the wind.
#10
De Villepin also said France is interested in helping Iraq build its police force.
Here's something printed in a sidebar in today's local newspaper (emphasis mine):
"Today there is a path to the reconstruction of Iraq....All of us must engage it by involving the countries of the region to re-integrate Iraq in its environment and giving the United Nations its rightful place to guarantee the legitimacy of the process." -- Dominique De Villepin
1) The 1923 inflation was largely staged by the German government: it stopped in a matter of days once the German government reached its goal: the retreat of the French Army from the Ruhr without Germany paying what it owed. Prices had been multiplied by ONE MILLION in six months. And suddenly in a few weeks, nothing. Do you think this is possible if inflation is not artificial?
2) The 1923 inflation did not bring the Nazis to power: in 1928 the Nazi party was a small and declining party. It was brought to power by the 1929 depression
3) About the sanctions. Suppose you have a business of say, Chinese food. One day one of your competitors sends thugs who destroy your installations. Would you ask for your competitor having to pay for the repairs? (In case of France and Belgium hundreds of mines and fabrics had been sabotaged by the Germans, entire regions had been made unfit to agriculture due to mines or poisoning by amo or gasses). If your competitor paid for the damages but used the time you cannot produce in order to corner the market so that when you return you find your former clients have contracts with him would you think it was fair if he had to pay only for the installations? Don't you think they should cripple him so he can't take advantage of the damage he has caused?
4) If you had fallen in debt during the fight would you find fair that your creditor (we will call him United States) was asking to be reimbursed all while asking you to forgive the debt of your agressor?
Note: The above doesn't preclude I find Mr Galouzeau (Villepin's real name) and his master utterly corrupt and repugnant.
(14 Billion short. Not sure why it doesn't add up -- might be baksheesh quotient ?)
U.S. Grants 1946 - 2001, in current US millions:
(these are not intended to be paid back, of course)
Total: 297,063.3
Wow. We are an easy touch, aren't we ?
Posted by: Carl in N.H. ||
12/15/2003 17:30 Comments ||
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#13
Carl, I think the $14B was probably written off as bad debt or maybe we forgave some of it.
JFM, the US isn't much of a creditor. I am glad that we did what we did with grants. Without Chiraq in power and the governments tight control of the media, I don't think the French people would be anti-American.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 19:50 Comments ||
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#14
France should rethink the Iraqi debt issue. I have a feeling that there is alot of dreck being dredged up on documented complicity of Chiraq with Sammy and Co. We will have to see.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
12/15/2003 22:34 Comments ||
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Imagine the utter amazement of a refugee from a Communist country, where Marxism was forced on all students, now having to sink in a puddle of socialist propaganda again — but this time in the middle of an American university! My suprise meter didnât budge.
Imagine the astonishment of a person who, after fighting the KGB and being a refusenik, finally comes so close to her dream of receiving a real education instead of indoctrination, only to find herself, once again, in the middle of a socialist brainwashing machine — but this time in San Francisco. Unfortunately, at San Francisco State University, meeting with members of the monolithic left-wing faculty, who are still soaked in the delirium of the Marxist-Socialist utopia, is an everyday necessity for the average student. Very few SFSU faculty members separate their political platforms from the professorâs podium. When a professor in the Philosophy department teaches Marxism with the zealotry of a new convert, it is totally understandable; but when a Linguistics professor pushes socialist ideas instead of explaining sentence structure, or a Geography professor slaps slogans of the extreme left-wing organization International ANSWER on her office door (paid for by taxpayers with differing political views), it becomes another matter altogether. Of course if the prof used slogans from the GOP or Rantburg they would be burned at the stake.
Obviously, being busy with teaching and promoting world change, these professors have overlooked the well-known fact that Marxist ideology failed the test in every country where it was applied.
They also tend to overlook teaching what they're paid to teach...
Completely unchastened by the failure of socialism, these individuals still harbor the dream of a Union of American Socialist Republics. It is not my duty to enlighten them about the events of modern history or to correct their outdated â60s-era radical political views. But unfortunately, their obsession affects their job performance and ruins education systems all across the county.
They also pass on some habits of intellectual sloppiness that don't stand their students in good stead...
These academics assume that all the students have the same anti-American and anti-Bush opinions they uniformly hold. So instead of the material listed in the syllabus, they present soliloquies about American imperialism. Last summer, one of my professors started every class with Orwellian "Five-Minute Hate" condemnations of President Bush. The instructor did not understand how ridiculous he looked: a 50-year-old guy in sandals and a worn-out jacket with hanging threads, who didnât make it to an Ivy League university, giving hysterical speeches calling President Bush "a moron" and "a good for nothing idiot." This confused me. Was the professor referring to the George W. Bush who was elected governor of Texas and then the president of the richest and most powerful country in the world? Was he referring to the George W. Bush who graduated with a B.A. from Yale and an M.B.A. from Harvard, who made $14 million in the baseball business, who was a military pilot and acted with courage and nobility as a leader during one of the worst moments of American history on September 11?
Yep. That's the guy. The one who seems to outsmart them at every turn...
"What is this?" I asked myself. Welcome to the Loony Leftâs Amerika!
At least this professor can be credited for giving me my well-deserved grade of C. Another professor, who hated President Bush because he, like Bush, also graduated from Yale, gave me an F with a note saying that I would never overcome the language barrier. I couldnât help reflecting that, at the same age as Bush, this professor had achieved little more than a few divorces and five children spread all over the country — information that he poured on us before even learning our names, which, by the way, he never managed to do. Considering how irritated he was by my essay, which ridiculed his leftist views, this professor was not conducting himself in a fair and unbiased manner. Obviously, I was not the only student who complained about my grade. As a result, the English department quickly changed my grade of F to "no credit." The following semester, I repeated the same class with a famously tough teacher, receiving a B+ and many compliments on my writing. It seems that I had overcome my allegedly insurmountable âlanguage barrierâ after all. Good Observation:
I noticed a recurring pattern in SFSUâs anti-American professors: the degree to which a professor condemned American âimperialismâ was usually in direct proportion to his lack of personal hygiene and steady decline in personal appearance. God what a great quote!
I was especially fascinated by one middle-aged guy who had alcoholism written all over his face, in bathhouse flip-flops revealing dirty overgrown toenails, and with his belongings stuffed in a plastic grocery bag. If I hadnât seen him behind the teacherâs desk, I would have mistaken him for one of San Franciscoâs deranged homeless or Saddam, lost on the campus having wandered from the neighboring shower program. Instead of his subject, African Studies, he was teaching that America was rich only because it dishonestly made money on rebuilding Europe after WWII. If not for that lucky strike, he argued, this country would be even more terrible than it is now. He never had notes or a clear structure for his lectures; he just improvised on his well-worn, beloved topic of anti-Americanism. America made money on rebuilding Europe? Is this true?
Professors of "African studies" have also taught that Hannibal was black, that the pharoahs stole the idea of the pyramids from Africa, and even that Socrates was black. Reasearch and documentation are artificial constructs, foisted on the Third World by the Forces of Imperialism™. Everybody knows that...
Over time I found the inverse proportion worked as well: the more well-kept and professional the teacher was, and the harder he worked, the less inclined he was to get himself into the mess of quasi-political discussions instead of the work he was paid to do: teach.
I've noticed the same applies in the business world...
One female instructor, who had no idea how to fill the three hours of class, used to spend 40 minutes taking attendance and often started her lectures with the sentence, "In this country. . . ." Instead of discussing literature, she would consistently praise socialism and what she considered to be the Soviet workersâ paradise. Only my cobra-like gaze and "rude" remarks made her choke on her words. For this offence, I received a D, even though my essays were so good that she told me she didnât believe I was the one who wrote them. What? A Russian who does not beleve in Marxism? Impossible! You cannot be a real russian!
Immediately before the war in Iraq, I watched two different kinds of professors at SFSU: both of them, naturally, antiwar. The good:
Some of them did their work with professional integrity even though their hearts were on the antiwar side, trusting students to make their own political decisions. The bad (and the ugly):
Some others not only served as ideologues to the anti-American mob organized under their patronage, but also agitated and incited students to leave classes for antiwar demonstrations. This is good:
This pointed out the major difference between my education in the Soviet Union and my education at SFSU. When I wanted to transfer credits from my Leningrad University degree to SFSU, I was told by the International Admissions Office that it couldnât be done, because as a professor of Marxist-Leninist philosophy, I had only gone through "indoctrination." I find this fascinating, because the difference between Leningrad University and SFSU is that my professors in Leningrad were forced to teach socialist propaganda for fear of brutal punishment; here a bunch of aged hippies, who put students through forced indoctrination instead of academic work, were materially rewarded for their radical activism. Not only am I as amazed as Alice in the Socialist Wonderland of San Francisco State University, but I feel as though I need to attend a third university to receive a real education. At SFSU, Iâve merely had my second Marxist indoctrination.
When I wanted to transfer credits from my Leningrad University degree to SFSU, I was told by the International Admissions Office that it couldnât be done, because as a professor of Marxist-Leninist philosophy, I had only gone through "indoctrination." Tatiana should have tried the Education Department at SFSU - her credits could have resulted in the award of Doctorate degree without the need of further study.
If I hadnât seen him behind the teacherâs desk, I would have mistaken him for one of San Franciscoâs deranged homeless ... This idea should be forwarded to the new governor as a way to cut overhead at the state universites. Many classes could be taught by deranged homeless at a savings. The quality of instruction might also improve markedly.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 19:32 Comments ||
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#4
SH, I think many classes are being taught by deranged homeless people......
#6
"the degree to which a professor condemned American âimperialismâ was usually in direct proportion to his lack of personal hygiene and steady decline in personal appearance."
An all time classic! You'll make the same observation in Europe.
But San Francisco is a beautiful city nonetheless.
#7
I had the great pleasure of attending SF State during the first Gulf War. For those of you who don't believe it's as bad there as reported. Trust me, it is.
Posted by: Rex Mundi ||
12/15/2003 20:08 Comments ||
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Michael Moore weighs in on Saddamâs capture. Itâs too perfect to edit a thing out:
Thank God Saddam is finally back in American hands! He must have really missed us. Man, he sure looked bad! But, at least he got a free dental exam today. Thatâs something most Americans canât get. Donât forget the free shave and haircut, the homeless canât get those in Bush Amerika either.
America used to like Saddam. We LOVED Saddam. We funded him. We armed him. We helped him gas Iranian troops. But then he screwed up. He invaded the dictatorship of Kuwait
Yes! Yes! The dictatorship of Kuwait! Kuwait, which is barely large enough to hold all its mass graves, full of... ummm...
and, in doing so, did the worst thing imaginable â he threatened an even BETTER friend of ours: the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, and its vast oil reserves. The Bushes and the Saudi royal family were and are close business partners, and Saddam, back in 1990, committed a royal blunder by getting a little too close to their wealthy holdings. Things went downhill for Saddam from there.
Ho hum. It's all about o-o-o-i-i-i-l-l-l zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
But it wasnât always that way. Saddam was our good friend and ally. We supported his regime. It wasnât the first time we had helped a murderer. We liked playing Dr. Frankenstein.
"Whaddya think, Igor? Think this nose'll fit?"
We created a lot of monsters â the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile â and then we expressed ignorance or shock when they ran amok and massacred people. We liked Saddam because he was willing to fight the Ayatollah. So we made sure that he got billions of dollars to purchase weapons.
Uhhh... Mikey? We didn't have to give him billions to purchase weapons. He had an entire prosperous country to loot. That's why it's not prosperous anymore...
Weapons of mass destruction. Thatâs right, he had them. We should know â we gave them to him! Gee Mike, I thought the WMDs were a ruse to take his oil?
We allowed and encouraged American corporations to do business with Saddam in the 1980s. Thatâs how he got chemical and biological agents so he could use them in chemical and biological weapons. Hereâs the list of some of the stuff we sent him (according to a 1994 U.S. Senate report):
* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.
* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.
Well, that makes sense. AT&T's deeply involved in the development of... ummm... telecommunications equipment. That's next thing to weapons of mass destruction, ain't it? Bechtel? Whoa! You can't have oppression without some major construction activity. Caterpillar? That was probably for burying all his victims in mass graves. They make graders specifically for that purpose, y'know. Dow Chemical? It was probably them that developed all that nerve gas, rather than Sammy's scientists. The recipes for chlorine and mustard gas are pretty complicated, aren't they? Dupont helped them, of course, and Kodak sold them film to take pictures of the people they killed, pictures which were then printed on Hewlett-Packard printers, using software provided by IBM. Boy, not much gets by old Mikey, does it?
We were so cozy with dear old Saddam that we decided to feed him satellite images so he could locate where the Iranian troops were. We pretty much knew how he would use the information, and sure enough, as soon as we sent him the spy photos, he gassed those troops. And we kept quiet. Because he was our friend, and the Iranians were the "enemy." A year after he first gassed the Iranians, we reestablished full diplomatic relations with him! Later he gassed his own people, the Kurds. You would think that would force us to disassociate ourselves from him. Congress tried to impose economic sanctions on Saddam, but the Reagan White House quickly rejected that idea â they wouldnât let anything derail their good buddy Saddam. We had a virtual love fest with this Frankenstein whom we (in part) created.
Yeah. That's just the way I remember it, too... Kinda. Sorta.
And, just like the mythical Frankenstein, Saddam eventually spun out of control.
"Igor! The net!"
He would no longer do what he was told by his master. Saddam had to be caught. And now that he has been brought back from the wilderness, perhaps he will have something to say about his creators. Maybe we can learn something... interesting. Maybe Don Rumsfeld could smile and shake Saddamâs hand again. Just like he did when he went to see him in 1983. Yawn.. Oh, sorry, I nodded off. Continue.
Maybe we never would have been in the situation weâre in if Rumsfeld, Bush, Sr., and company hadnât been so excited back in the 80s about their friendly monster in the desert. Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe heâs in a mouse hole. Heâs rotting in a cave in Afghanistan.
So many of our little monsters, so little time before the next election. True, thereâs Syria, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, France, so many countries, so little time.
We created them all, you know. We created Luxembourg, too. And Moldavia. I take personal credit for Samoa.
Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security. But Mike, what about those WMDs you tell us Sammy had?
Only our desire to play Dr. Frankenstein dooms us all. Doom, I tell you! Doom!
Yours, Michael Moore
Heâs all yours, Rantburgers
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 11:06:42 AM ||
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#1
Tech Central Station had a different take on Sadaam's capture that was simularly titled: Thank God He's Alive.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 11:42 Comments ||
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#2
"And here are some of the American corporations who helped to prop Saddam up by doing business with him: AT&T, Bechtel, Caterpillar, Dow Chemical, Dupont, Kodak, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM."
I can't believe he forgot to mention Haliburton. And if it's all about oil, how come none of the companies Mooooooooore fingers is an oil company?
I'm surprised he didn't allege that Saddam got his WMD when he opened a bank account in Michigan. What a turd this guy is!
Posted by: Tibor ||
12/15/2003 11:45 Comments ||
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#6
Michael Moore is actually more entertaining than Al Sharpton.
I am truly glad that people like Michael Moore and his type are getting airplay. Andrew Sullivan's blog had a link (http://www.democraticunderground.com/) and it is hilarious. A bunch of sanctimonious cry-babies. It's actually funny to see all the wusses spitting and slobbering over each other. The more Middle America sees these losers, the more these losers disenfanchise themselves.
I can't imagine, not matter how much you hate Rummy and GW, wanting to see US military KIA. It's truly beyond me.
#10
God, I hate MM--the consummate LyingLiberalLeft asshat along with his bride of Frankenstein, Babs Streisand.
Couldn't we enlarge that spider hole a bit in Tikrit and stuff Mikey Moore in?
It would be unconscionable for the US military to leave Iraq all hole-y!
EFL:
PESHAWAR : Business has never been better for the bootleggers of Peshawar . A year after a conservative Islamic bloc swept to power in northwest Pakistan , clandestine alcohol sellers speak of soaring demand for vodka and whisky - which are strictly prohibited. "Since the mullahs came into power we have been earning a lot of money," said one illicit trader in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP). "If you had to live here, youâd drink too!"
Asking not to be identified, he said he was one of 15 dealers working for the largest bootlegging network in Peshawar , the teeming provincial capital. The group, he added, shifted alcohol worth $400,000 during this yearâs Islamic holiday of Eid Al-Fitr alone. He and many others laugh off Western media descriptions of the six-party Islamic Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) coalition as the ânew Talibanâ. "I know the Taliban, the Taliban were friends of mine, and they ainât no Taliban"
While some member parties openly support the ousted Afghan militia, and sometimes preach a hard line form of Islam, people in Peshawar say their bark is worse than their bite. Why, you may ask? Simple, in Peshawar, the people bite back.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 2:14:28 PM ||
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So I guess now it's "what's the price for a fifth of homemade hootch in Peshawar?" And what are my bets that the MMA takes a nice cut from the business?
Security was beefed up on Monday for Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf following an apparent bid to assassinate him, even as authorities detained six persons, including three policemen, in connection with the incident. Six people had been detained so far in connection with the blast on Sunday, police sources here said, adding a high alert had been sounded in the capital and security had been tightened for the President. The detained three policemen, who were supposed to guard the Jhada Chichi bridge located barely a stoneâs throw from Pakistan armyâs 10 Corps Headquarters in Rawalpindi , were reportedly missing when the blast took place. Oops! Better have a really good reason or a really good fall guy as to why you were not on duty.
Police officials said that two high intensity bombs were planted beneath the bridge. At least one bomb exploded wrecking the bridge soon after Musharrafâs motorcade crossed it on Sunday night while the President was on his way to Army House from Chaklala airport in Islamabad . The explosion took place at around 7.45 pm , about seven seconds after the last vehicle of the presidential convoy passed over it. The last vehicle was occupied by the DSP Security, they said. "Control, weâre clear. Go ahead."
Army and civil inquiries into the incident had been ordered, government and military officials said. "The usual suspects, Sir?"
"No, Sergeant, not this time."
Musharraf has said that the bomb blast in which he escaped unhurt was an attempt on his life by terrorists. Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat said that the blast could have been triggered by militant groups opposed to recent peace moves between India and Pakistan . Heh heh heh
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 1:59:31 PM ||
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Life in the Arabian Sea fishing town of Gwadar, whose only claim to fame until now has been as a spot through which Alexander the Great executed his retreat from India in 325 BC, is undergoing a cataclysmic change. This mega deep seaport is under construction at a cost of a quarter of a billion dollars, and if the vision of Pakistanâs leaders and the Chinese builders is realized, it will be transformed into a futuristic gateway for trade to the landlocked Central Asia. Or a Chinese naval base in the Indian Ocean.
Pakistan and its most trusted ally China signed a deal last year to build the 248-million-dollar deep seaport, aiming for completion by March 2005, Gwadar Port Development Authority chairman Rear Admiral Sarfraz Khan said. The aim is to take on other Gulf ports, particularly Jebel Ali of the United Arab Emirates and Omanâs Salalah, and offer the landlocked Central Asian states their most efficient warm water access to both the West and the East. Access to a warm water port, echos from the Great Game.
"It was a long-standing desire of these states to reach hot waters and now we have ourselves offered this opportunity to them," Mr Khan said. "Gwadar will be the shortest route for the Central Asian states and their proposed East and West-bound oil exports if the plan goes well." But what plan here ever does?
Goods shipped into Gwadar will be taken by road to Pakistanâs western neighbour Afghanistan, where a road network will take them to Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and deeper into Central Asia. Stuff can be shipped out too. You know, stuff.
China is funding three-quarters of the project, supplying $198 million in a mixture of loans and grants, and Islamabad the remaining $50 million. China Harbour Company, leading the construction, is in the process of creating a new peninsula by reclaiming land from the sea. "We are confident that the 36-month deadline for completion will be met successfully," Mr Khan said. The China Harbour Company is even more optimistic. "We are well ahead of the scheduled time... we will finish our work by 2004," senior engineer Xia Yubin told AFP. "If we donât, I could end up in the foundations"
China will itself be a chief beneficiary of the project. "China would prefer to dispatch its consignments to Gwadar port from its western provinces as it offers a shorter transportation route compared to Chinaâs eastern coasts," said the port authority chief. All true, and if you play nice it could be a good thing.
As tugs, survey boats, and giant cranes increasingly crowd Gwadarâs waters, real estate prices are skyrocketing. "An acre of land which used to cost Rs5,000 ($87) only six months ago is now being sold for up to Rs400,000 rupees ($6,920)," estate agent Atta Ullah said. "We had never thought of such escalation of our lands value...even in our dreams." "I can afford to move to London."
Locals face a bigger upheaval however: a master plan for beautifying Gwadar and creating infrastructure to supplement the port hinges on relocating 70 per cent of the cityâs 50,000 residents. "Under the master plan, the present population of the city will be relocated," Mr Khan said, adding that they would be offered new plots outside of Gwadar "as compensation". Uh huh, just like those chinese farmers "relocated" to make room for the Three Gorges dam.
A road along the coast is already under construction to link Gwadar with Karachi, 675km (420 miles) to the northeast. The Iranian border is 75km (about 45 miles) to the west. The master plan envisions raising a virtually non-existent infrastructure on a barren piece of land. An airport, export processing zones, resorts, housing facilities and civic amenities are on the drawing board, as well as a new road network linking Gwadar with Pakistanâs major cities and industrial zones. But the Gwadar residents say they will taste none of the benefits. Of course not.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 1:27:23 PM ||
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export Opium back to China to pay it off?
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/15/2003 13:56 Comments ||
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Pakistan and its most trusted ally China signed a deal last year to build the 248-million-dollar deep seaport, aiming for completion by March 2005...
The Burmese on one end of the ocean, the Paks on the other.
EFL:
Contrary to claims made by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf that a bomb blast at a bridge near Rawalpindi was directed specifically at him, highly placed sources in Islamabad say that he may have engineered the incident to retain Washingtonâs support as key ally in the war against terror and to strengthen his hold on power. The sources, on conditions of anonymity, further went on to say that it was ironical that no one had as yet claimed responsibility for the blast. It was also inexplicable that the incumbent establishment was continuing to maintain a stoic silence about who may have been behind the so-called assassination bid. All good points.
It was their suspicion that Musharraf may have used the "bid on his life" to convince the United States that he was still their best hope in Pakistan and in the South Asian region for cooperation as far as tackling the menace of global terrorism is concerned. Domestically too, Musharraf may have wanted to send a message across to the Bush Administration that attempts to remove him from power at this juncture, could damage efforts to usher in a democratic, secular system of government, especially in the wake of reports that religious extremism and militant activity were raising their ugly heads again. Last time I looked, Musharraf was the only semi-sane leader in Pakistan. We donât want him gone, the Pak fundiâs do. If Perv staged this attack, and my gut says he did, it was to give him a reason to go after his opponents. They arrested some guys this morning, 3 cops included. Weâll have to watch and see who they implicate.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 10:43:29 AM ||
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If it's the ISS after him, I don't think he'll last to long.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 11:53 Comments ||
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UPDATE: President Pervez Musharraf on Sunday said he remains undeterred in the wake of terrorist incident on a Rawalpindi bridge soon after he crossed it and asserted that Pakistan will continue to fight against extremism as it is the greatest internal threat to the country. The president said there is no need for despondency or scare and he trusts in God and life continues normally for him. The president said in response to a question that his message to forces behind the incident has been loud and clear, all along. "It is the militants, extremists, terrorists and fundamentalists, who are out to not only damage our nation but also bring a bad name to our great religion." Pakistan, he underlined, faces no external threat but an internal threat in the form of religious extremism. "I have been saying that the greatest danger to our nation is not external, it is internal and it comes from religious and sectarian extremists, and this is a typical example of that. "We have to guard against them and we have to fight all these people with all our might.
President Musharraf said he does not have full details about the incident "except that, yes I know, that when I came back from tour of Sindh, and as I was going home from Chaklala, and we crossed the Ammar Chowk bridge there was an explosion just one minute or half a minute after we crossed." The president said he felt the explosion in his car and that is all he knew when he reached home.
The government, he said, is collecting all the information. The president said the explosive used in the blast on the concrete bridge must have been very heavy. "It must have been a large explosive because it damaged the concrete."
President Musharraf who attended a wedding ceremony at a local hotel said he is used to this kind of things and "we have to fight the forces (behind terrorist incidents) with full might - we will meet this threat and investigate the incident.
"It was certainly a terrorist act and, certainly, it was me who was targeted, but let me say with confidence that I am used to such incidents, it has happened before also, one does not get bothered. "God is great and one has to trust in God, there is no problem, life continues normally - God is the Saviour," he made these remarks after attending the wedding ceremony.
Shakil Shaikh adds: Undeterred by an apparent attempt on his life Sunday evening President Musharraf went back to the federal capital to attend wedding ceremony of the daughter of former ISI Chief Lt-Gen (retd) Mehmood Ahmed at the hotel almost an hour following an attempt on his life. It was the second attempt on his life in more than a year. The authorities managed to arrest the terrorists and those involved in that attempt.
"President Musharraf is a great believer of destiny and fate and he is always undeterred by all such incidents taking place in his life," a president's aide told The News. Following the Sunday attempt on his life, the president went to the Army House and after refreshing himself went back to Islamabad on the same route. He went back to Islamabad even against the advice of his security guides. "What a courageous and bold Muslim the president is," said a senior official.
Or he knew that there was not going to be a second attempt. Sounds like a setup job.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 13:00 Comments ||
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#3
More details: Seven people including three policemen were arrested in connection with the bomb explosion at the Jhanda Chichi bridge in Rawalpindi soon after President Pervez Musharrafâs motorcade passed on Sunday, reports a private television. The authorities are interrogating the arrested persons. Meanwhile, Commander of Armyâs Tenth Corps, DIG Rawalpindi and other high-ranking officials visited the blast site in Rawalpindi. All law enforcement agencies were put on high alert in the twin cities of Islamabad and Rawalpindi soon after the blast. Large-scale operation was also under way in the Federal Capital and adjoining areas.
And the roundup begins.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 13:38 Comments ||
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#4
'scuse me for egotistically quoting myself...
As I conjectured [here on RB] yesterday, the boom may have been staged to justify Pervy thinning the crop. If not, then it really justifies Pervy thinning the crop.
#5
Last time I looked, Musharraf was the only semi-sane leader in Pakistan. We donât want him gone, the Pak fundiâs do
But the Pak Fundi's are his greatest ally, even if they have differences over Afghanistan and America, the Jihadis and the Army continue to be natural allies.
And ISI Chief Lt-Gen (retd) Mehmood Ahmed allegedly had money wired to Mohammad Atta, as reported in the Wall Street Journal, but noone delved any further into the allegation, in contrast to reports of an alleged meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence agent.
AFTER lying low for a while, Bangladeshâs Muslims have intensified their activities. Al-Qaedaâs recent successes in Iraq and a spate of terrorist attacks in Turkey have boosted their morale. The country has become home to indigenous and foreign Islamic terrorists. Also, suspected Bangladeshi terrorists have been arrested abroad. Sixteen were arrested in Bolivia on Dec 4 after the local authorities received intelligence input from France. Though all of them were later released for lack of evidence, it was strongly believed that they were travelling on false documents with the aim of hijacking a plane to strike at United States interests. Similarly, 11 Bangladeshis were earlier arrested in Saudi Arabia on Aug 14, while they were allegedly planning a terrorist act.
A recent Canadian Security Intelligence Service report suggested that Bangladesh is fast emerging as a new haven for Islamic terrorists. The report noted recent attacks by radicals on Bangladeshi cultural groups, hints of collusion with Al-Qaeda and the governmentâs alleged unwillingness to act. It further suggested that these Muslims could pose a threat to Canadian aid agencies with a strong presence in Bangladesh, the third-largest Muslim country in the world.
The US is also aware of this threat potential. It has listed Bangladesh as a terror-risk country and has included it in the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System. Bangladeshis, along with nationals of 24 other countries, are to be photographed and fingerprinted when entering the US. In the past six months, the US State Department has twice warned its nationals about travelling to Bangladesh. Inside the country, minorities whom Muslims consider kafirs (non-believers) have been persecuted. They have been asked to convert to Islam and their places of worship have been attacked. Last month, an Islamist organisation, Harkat-e-Islam Al-Jihad, issued an ultimatum to religious-minority businessmen and leaders of an opposition party to convert to Islam within seven days. On Nov 19, 11 members of a Hindu family were burnt alive in the Chittagong district. In the same month, Hindu priests shut down at least 10 temples in central Bangladesh after suspected Islamic militants ransacked them. Violence has also been unleashed against the Ahamadiyas, a Muslim sect. Fanatics killed an Ahamadia imam on Nov 1 in Jessore. Extremists have several times tried to capture an Ahamadiya mosque in Dhaka.
After the US dislodged the fundamentalist Taleban regime in Afghanistan, it was no longer available as a safe haven for Islamic jihadis. The fugitives of Al-Qaeda and allied groups started searching for new places to hide. A number of them migrated to Bangladesh. Some of the senior Al-Qaeda leaders - including its second-in-command, Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahiri - are believed to have stayed there. Recently, as the noose tightened on the Jemaah Islamiah (JI) in South-east Asia, a number of its top leaders, including Hambali, tried to relocate to Bangladesh. Hambali was caught in Ayuthaya, north of Bangkok, when he was about to move to Bangladesh. It is believed that one of JIâs most wanted men, Malaysian accountant Zulkifli Marzuki, could be hiding in Bangladesh. Muslim extremists find the country safe because the present government is soft towards them. The Islami Oikya Jote, which openly flaunts its allegiance to Al-Qaeda, is part of the ruling alliance. Extremists have no fear of a crackdown and the local police force is too corrupt to act against them. The nearly total absence of law and order in Bangladesh makes the fanaticsâ operations easy. Bangladesh may be on the side of the US in the war on terrorism but the situation prevailing on the ground tells a different story. The country is a weak link in the war and unless steps are taken soon to rectify the situation, the international effort to contain terror may be weakened considerably.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 1:03:06 AM ||
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#1
Is there anything Bangldesh isn't the weak link in?
Thirteen people were killed in restive Kashmir in separatist-related violence, police said yesterday, adding they will send a cache of possibly poisonous bullets for chemical analysis.
Police on Friday seized a small pistol shaped like a pen and 25 small bullets near the northern town of Handwara. A policeman was left temporarily unconscious after breaking open one of the bullets which were marked Neuroxene - which scientists said was some kind of nerve gas. The cache was sealed and sent to a police laboratory for chemical analysis. "To be sure what the bullets are made up of we are likely to send them to some well-known forensic laboratory (outside the state)," a police officer said. Indian troops have never before found chemical or biological weapons from Kashmiri rebels fighting to end Indian rule in Kashmir.
Meanwhile, personnel of Indiaâs Border Security Force (BSF) today shot dead a suspected militant in the Bemina locality of Srinagar, the Kashmiri summer capital during an encounter, a police spokesman said. A civilian also died during the exchange of gunfire, he said. Police had to use force to control more than 2,000 angry residents who demonstrated against the killing, witnesses said. The residents accused the troops of not letting them take the injured civilian to hospital after he suffered gunshot wounds, resulting in his death.
In another incident Indian troops shot dead two Muslim militants in the southern town of Kulgam during a vehicle search late yesterday.
Another rebel was shot dead in the northern district of Kupwara overnight by troops during an encounter, police said.
Five more militants were killed in two separate encounters in the southern Poonch.
One was killed in the southern Udhampur districts late yesterday.
A Muslim civilian and a policeman were shot dead by suspected rebels in their homes in the southern Shopian and northern Handwara towns overnight, police said.
Violence by rebels has persisted in the restive region despite a ceasefire by the Indian and Pakistani armies along both the disputed and undisputed borders over Kashmir. The violence has left 110 people dead, including 70 rebels, since the truce began November 26.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:44:37 AM ||
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Tail end of a too-long article. Scroll down.
On Friday, 1st Armored foiled one such kidnap-attack, when an Iraqi man appeared at the gate of a U.S. base complaining that he was being forced to detonate a roadside bomb to secure his sonâs release. :jawdrop:
"They told me theyâll kill my son unless I kill some Americans," Hertling quoted the Iraqi man as saying. The man carried an electric garage door opener wired as a remote-control detonator. U.S. troops followed the manâs instructions and found a specially wired 120 mm mortar round on a street near the base, he said. :speechless:
The man then escorted troops to a nearby house where American soldiers arrested three kidnappers and freed the son, the Army said. The three men then led the troops to the bomb maker. "You have the right to remain silentâŠ"
#1
NO NO NO NO NO! Capturing Saddam will have NO affect on the conduct of the Iraqis. I think this speaks volumes of the 'volunteers' they are getting.
The 55 most-wanted Iraqis and their status, according to U.S. Central Command. Forty-two have been captured or killed and 13 remain at large.
Captured or killed:
* No. 1: Saddam Hussein, president. Captured Dec. 13.
* No. 2: Qusai Hussein, Saddamâs son. Killed July 22.
* No. 3: Odai Hussein, Saddamâs son. Killed July 22.
* No. 4: Abid Hamid Mahmud al-Tikriti, presidential secretary, Saddamâs cousin. Captured June 16.
* No. 5: Ali Hassan al-Majid, presidential adviser, Revolutionary Command Council member. Also known as "Chemical Ali." Captured Aug. 21.
* No. 8: Aziz Saleh al-Numan, Baath Party Baghdad region command chairman. Captured May 22.
* No. 9: Muhammad Hamza al-Zubaydi, retired Revolutionary Command Council member, a leader of 1991 suppression of Shiite rebellion. Captured April 20.
* No. 10: Kamal Mustafa Abdallah Sultan al-Tikriti, secretary of the Republican Guard, Saddamâs son-in-law. Surrendered May 17.
* No. 11: Barzan Abd al-Ghafur Sulayman Majid al-Tikriti, Special Republican Guard commander, Saddamâs cousin. Captured July 23.
* No. 12: Muzahim Saâb Hassan al-Tikriti, who headed Iraqâs air defenses under Saddam. Captured April 23.
* No. 13 Ibrahim Ahmad Abd al Sattar Muhammad, armed forces chief of staff. Captured May 15.
* No. 17: Hamid Raja Shalah al-Tikriti, air force commander. Captured June 14.
* No. 18: Latif Nusayyif al-Jasim al-Dulaymi, Baath Party military bureau deputy chairman. Captured June 9.
* No. 19: Abdel Tawab Mullah Huweish, deputy prime minister. Taken into custody May 2.
* No. 20: Taha Yassin Ramadan, vice president, Revolutionary Command Council member. Captured Aug. 20.
* No. 22: Jamal Mustafa Abdallah Sultan al-Tikriti, deputy head of tribal affairs, Saddamâs son-in-law. Captured April 20.
* No. 23: Mizban Khadr Hadi, Revolutionary Command Council member. Captured July 9.
* No. 24: Taha Muhie-eldin Marouf, vice president, Revolutionary Command Council member, only Kurd in Saddamâs hierarchy. Captured May 2.
* No. 25: Tariq Aziz, deputy prime minister. Captured April 25.
* No. 26: Walid Hamid Tawfiq, governor of Basra. Surrendered April 29.
* No. 27: Gen. Sultan Hashim Ahmed, defense minister. Surrendered Sept. 19, then taken off the most-wanted list but remains in U.S. custody.
* No. 28: Hikmat Mizban Ibrahim al-Azzawi, deputy prime minister, finance minister. Captured April 18.
* No. 29: Mahmoud Diab al-Ahmed, interior minister. Captured Aug. 8.
* No. 30: Ayad Futayyih Khalifa, Quds forces chief of staff. Captured June 4.
* No. 31: Gen. Zuhayr Talib Abd al-Sattar al-Naqib, director of military intelligence. Captured April 23.
* No. 32: Lt. Gen. Amir Hamudi Hasan al-Saadi, presidential scientific adviser. Surrendered April 12.
* No. 33: Amir Rashid Muhammad al-Ubaydi, presidential adviser, oil minister. Captured April 28.
* No. 34: Gen. Hussam Mohammed Amin, head of monitoring directorate, chief liaison with U.N. weapons inspectors. Captured April 27.
* No. 35: Muhammad Mahdi al-Salih, trade minister. Captured April 23.
* No. 37: Watban Ibrahim Hasan, presidential adviser, Saddamâs half brother. Captured April 13.
* No. 38: Barzan Ibrahim Hasan, presidential adviser, Saddamâs half brother. Captured April 16.
* No. 39: Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, reputedly scientist in biological weapons program, first woman elected to Baath Partyâs national command council. Captured May 9.
* No. 42: Samir Abd al-Aziz al-Najim, Baath Party regional command chairman. Captured April 17.
* No. 43: Humam Abdul-Khaliq Abdul-Ghafoor, minister of higher education and scientific research. Captured April 19.
* No. 45: Nayef Shedakh, Baath Party regional chairman, Najaf governorate, reported by Iraqi television to have been killed in battle for Najaf.
* No. 46: Sayf al-Din al-Mashadani, Baath Party regional command chairman. Captured May 24.
* No. 47: Fadil Mahmud Gharib, Baath Party regional command chairman. Captured May 15.
* No. 50: Ugla Abid Saqr, Baath Party regional chairman. Captured May 20.
* No. 51: Ghazi Hammud, Baath Party regional command chairman. Captured May 7.
* No. 52: Adilabdillah Mahdi al-Duri al-Tikriti, Baath Party regional command chairman. Captured May 15.
* No. 53: Brig. Gen. Husayn al-Awadi, Baath Party Regional command chairman, senior officer in Iraqi militaryâs chemical weapons corps. Captured June 9.
* No. 55: Sad Abd al-Majid al-Faysal, Baath Party Regional command chairman. Captured May 24.
Still at large:
* No. 6: Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, Revolutionary Command Council vice chairman, longtime Saddam confidant.
* No. 7: Hani Abd al-Latif Tilfah al-Tikriti, director, Special Security Organization.
* No. 14: Sayf al-Din Fulayyih Hasan Taha al-Rawi, Republican Guard chief of staff.
* No. 15: Rafi Abd al-Latif Tilfah al-Tikriti, director of general security.
* No. 16: Tahir Jalil Haboush, chief of Iraqi intelligence service.
* No. 21: Rukan Razuki Abd al-Ghafar Sulayman al-Majid al-Tikriti, head of tribal affairs office.
* No. 36: Sabawi Ibrahim Hasan, presidential adviser, Saddamâs half brother.
* No. 40: Abdel Baqi Abdel Karim Abdallah al-Sadun, Baath Party regional command chairman.
* No. 41: Mohammed Zimam Abdul Razaq, Baath Party regional command chairman.
* No. 44: Yahya Abdellah al-Aboudi, Baath Party regional command chairman.
* No. 48: Muhsin Khadr al-Khafaji, Baath Party regional command chairman.
* No. 49: Rashid Taan Kazim, Baath Party regional chairman.
* No. 54: Khamis Sirhan al-Muhammad, Baath Party Regional command chairman, militia commander.
More than most, his wife said, Col. James Hickey seethed about the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. "He was very angry that we were attacked so viciously," Maureen Hickey said. "With my husband, ever since 9/11 hit, there was this anger and a strong desire to do something. . . . I think he always hoped, in some capacity, he could help. So I guess, in a way, this was his chance to do something."
At nightfall Saturday, Hickey was riding in a lead armored vehicle as commander of 600 soldiers from the 4th Infantry Divisionâs 1st Brigade Combat Team in a raid on the Iraqi village of Dwar. They were "assigned the mission to kill or capture Saddam Hussein," according to Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of the U.S.-led forces in Iraq. A haggard-looking Saddam was pulled from a hole under an adobe hut about 30 minutes later, without a shot fired, Hickey told his wife Sunday. "I asked him, âDid you know it was him when you got him?â " she said. "He said, âI really had a strong sense it was him; it wasnât a body double.â He just thinks it happened so fast that Saddam didnât know what hit him."
When she learned on television that it was her husbandâs unit that captured Saddam, she leaped from the couch at their Fort Hood home, launching across the room two cats that had been sitting in her lap. "Youâre always rooting for the home team, so you canât help but be excited and proud that itâs your guys, the 4th Infantry Division," she said.
Hickey had commanded or taken part in more than 500 raids in the volatile area north of Baghdad since arriving in April. Some were in pursuit of Saddam; others, his lieutenants. "He was running raids day and night," said brother-in-law Bill Baltzer, who lives in Charlotte, N.C. "There was no question in his mind that they were going to get (Saddam)," Baltzer said. "His goal was to get him, and they werenât going to rest until they got him."
Hickey joined the 4th Infantry Division on April 15 and left days later for Kuwait, and then Iraq. When the war started in March, he was attending graduate classes at Georgetown University as an Army Senior Service College Fellow. He and Maureen were living in nearby Arlington, Va. "He was really sorry he wasnât there at the beginning of the thing," said retired Army Col. John McEvoy, who lived across the street. They discussed military history on several occasions â McEvoy is a World War II veteran â as well as current events and the buildup to the war in Iraq. "He was very straightforward and down to earth," McEvoy said.
Hickey arrived in Iraq as a lieutenant colonel and was made colonel and commander of the 1st Brigade in a ceremony June 13 in one of Saddamâs former palaces. Maureen Hickey deflects any label of hero that posterity might assign her husband. "Jim was fortunate and very aggressive in the way he went about his job and had some good luck and happened to be in the right place at the right time and nabbed the ace of spades."
A spokesperson at US Central Command in Doha has categorically denied reports that captured Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein is in Qatar.
Well, don't look at me. I don't have him...
"This is completely inaccurate. Saddam is at a secure, undisclosed location inside of Iraq," Major Dave Farlow told Aljazeera.net on Monday. Earlier, CNN reported that the ousted leader had been moved to the Gulf state.
Guess we know what they're saying at the bar of the Palestine Hotel...
"I think it's the media feeding on the media," said Farlow.
Nah. It's the media drinking...
When asked if such reports had risen due to possible plans to move Saddam to military installations in Qatar, he refused to speculate.
Try telling the bartender he's going to be moved to Thule, Greenland. See how many bite...
Saddam's whereabouts remain a mystery a day after US officials announced he had been captured in a hole near his hometown, Tikrit.
He's in jug. Where'd you think he'd be?
A member of the Iraqi Governing Council also denied the news, saying Saddam would be put on trial in Baghdad. A senior Qatari official was quoted by Reuters as saying, "It is very unlikely that Saddam would be brought to Qatar... I am not aware of any developments on this front".
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 16:28 ||
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The humiliating images of Saddam Hussein's capture by US forces risk increasing Arab support for the Iraqi resistance and sharpening their appetite for revenge™, analysts said on Monday.
Is there anything that doesn't sharpen the Arabs' appetite for Dire Revenge™?
"I felt extremely humiliated," said Egyptian writer Sayyid Nassar, who interviewed Saddam three weeks before the US-led invasion of Iraq on 20 March. "I felt it was not only a humiliation of Arabs but of all humanity. By shaving his beard, a symbol of virility in Iraq and in the Arab world, the Americans committed an act that symbolizes humiliation in our region, where getting shaved by one's enemy means robbing him of his will."
Ohfergawdsake. Every once in awhile one of these goobers makes a statement that results in me blowing stuff out my nose. It's actually easier to clean up if you were drinking something at the time...
"It's also a humiliation for all Arab leaders and a message telling them that he who does not enter the poultry yard of the Americans will experience the same fate," he said.
We're running a chicken yard now? Perhaps Michael Moore will add Perdue to his list of companies profiteering from Iraq...
Saddam's arrest "will not destroy the Iraqi resistance against the US occupier," and will encourage "feelings of Arab solidarity with the Iraqi fighters," he predicted. "On the contrary, the resistance will grow and change shape."
"Yes. It's the Sta-Puft Marshmallow resistance."
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 16:20 ||
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#1
the poultry yard of the Americans
Huh? I think he just called us "chickensh*t"! Them's fighting words...
#3
By shaving his beard, a symbol of virility in Iraq and in the Arab world, the Americans committed an act that symbolizes humiliation in our region, where getting shaved by one's enemy means robbing him of his will."
Well he must of been pretty verile prior to the fall of Bahgdad, even with out his wiskers. The Arabs should of paid attention to what happened to the Argies in the Falklands. If you want to play in the big time you better have your bags packed for when you get sent back down. Its not just about fire power and technology. Its about training, discipline and motivation.
#4
Wah, f***ing wah. If he'd gone down guns blazing in glory he would have inspired them. If he'd been dragged out of the hole by his scrotum wailing like a baby he'd have inspired them. If he'd been martyred and splattered on a palace wall by a CBU he'd have inspired them.
What a joke. Nothing to see here!
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 17:10 Comments ||
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#5
The "ace-in-the-hole" humuliated himself. We just provided the stage.
I have to admit for a moment I felt a twing of pity for the guy, but then remembered he's just a rat-bastard what deserves to die.
I felt extremely humiliated," said Egyptian writer Sayyid Nassar
Good! You and others of your ilk have plenty to be humiliated about. Get used to it, cupcake.
Want to stop feeling humiliated? GROW UP!
Asshole.
Posted by: Barbara Skolaut ||
12/15/2003 18:14 Comments ||
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#8
Woe is us. I'm going to the gates of Baghdad and committing suicide, and then setting my stomach on fire. We're all doomed. Oh, this hopeless quagmire, it's even worse than Vietnam.
Hmmm, I wonder how many al jizz-wads saddam is going to give up under questioning? It'd be a real shame if some of those terrorist press agents started developing extra holes in their heads.
#12
"I felt extremely humiliated," said Egyptian writer Sayyid Nassar".
Well, that is good. Very good. You are getting the message, Sayyid. You will get the message again and again until you learn some lesson, or you just go away. We are not going away. Get over your humiliation and get a life, and you may get inspired to uplift yourself out of the physical, mental, and spiritual shithole you currently find yourself in. Good luck.
Posted by: Alaska Paul ||
12/15/2003 22:52 Comments ||
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Capturing Saddam Hussein is one thing, convicting him in an impartial court is something else.
And justice is something else again...
One Iraqi Governing Council member and judge, Dara Nur al-Din, has highlighted the impartiality problem already. Having helped draft the statute creating the war crimes tribunal, Nur al-Din told journalists on Monday that people in Iraq need "to see the nature of crimes committed with Saddam at the helm". Ahmad Chalabi, another member of the Governing Council, promised: "Saddam will stand a public trial so that the Iraqi people will know his crimes". US President George Bush has also promised that "the former dictator of Iraq will face the justice he denied to millions" - though he did not say where the former president would be tried and by whom.
He was captured yesterday, or actually the evening before. I suppose that's lots of time to come up with detailed plans for his disposition.
No judges or administrators have yet been appointed to the tribunal, and with no transitional government set to assume sovereignty until 1 July â questions of how justice is to be meted out are bound to be asked. For instance, could the Iraqi tribunal have the power to impose death sentences? International human rights groups are concerned over early indications.
Sammy's victims aren't dead anymore, so why should he face the death penalty?
I've always thought of that as an exemplary example of the administration of justice, myself. But then, Old Nick's victims were still dead...
Amnesty International has told Aljazeera.net that as Iraq's former military commander in chief, Hussein is most certainly a prisoner of war and should be given prompt access to the International Red Cross Thingy. "Like any other criminal suspect he is entitled to all relevant safeguards under international law, including the right not to be subjected to torture or ill-treatment", said Amnesty spokeswoman Nicole Shuairy.
Read it again, Nicole. He's a head of state, a member of the regime. He doesn't become a POW. All those Nazis, all those Japanese militarists, Noriega, the Taliban functionaries, none of them were POWs...
"Of course he has the right to receive a fair trial, a defense lawyer and the minimum safeguards as any other prisoner," she added.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 16:05 ||
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#1
Let's do it Uncle Joe's way - first the execution, then the trial.
#3
I hope they do not re-instate the death penalty for him.
Keeping him alive as a living display, breaking rocks, make him eat prok chops, tend a pig herd, etc.
Or, do what my wife suggested:
Put him on display in a 10x10 cage downtown, to let the people see the bastard and spit on him or throw shoes. Make a mockery out of him.
This would also solve the death penalty problem, indirectly. You do remember that there are a lot fo RPG's laying around Iraq, right? And the RPG-7 is effective up to 500 meters against point targets, like a cage in a town square.
#4
The treatment Macduff offered Macbeth if he wanted to live...
We need to understand that this is not about a "fair trial" for Saddam. There just can't be a fair trial for him. No atrocity that we or the Iraqis could inflict on him could ever be "fair" (matching his crimes).
What most people don't understand yet this is not about Saddam having a right to "his day in court". It's about the right of his victims to face the monster... a truth commission without the South African forgiveness.
Everybody should be allowed to be heard in court. Yes, this could take a while. We could send the (surviving) victims in by groups though.. one day for the ones without tongues, one day for those without handss, one day for those whose relatives were gassed.... you get the point.
Saddam has no right to anything. He doesn't even have the Nazi excuse of "just following orders"... because he GAVE them.
When tyrants fall, it's the famous "vae victis" (woe to the conquered) treatment for them.
#6
The Romanians were just proving to everybody that Nicky wasn't really a vampire. There were rumors. Plus, as an added bonus they finally got his harpy of a wife to STFU, which everyone really appreciated. She had the most annoying whine...
Oh, and it convinced the securitate to come out of their bunkers, too. A good day all around, in my humble opinion.
"[ICRC Spokesperson]Christen noted that former Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega -- overthrown and captured by U.S. troops in 1990 -- was formally declared a prisoner of war but this did not prevent him being tried and jailed in the United States for drugs offences."
He has certain rights not afforded other federal prisoners, like the right to wear his military uniform. Regardless, he can expect to remain jugged until approximately the end of time.
EFL:
An Iraqi scientist who headed Saddam Husseinâs missile program has been meeting with the British military in Iraq and he said he didnât flee to Iran as believed by U.S. weapons hunters. Modher Sadeq-Saba al-Tamimi said in an interview with The Associated Press that he tried several times to reach the American teams searching for weapons of mass destruction. Once, in July, he asked a friend who had already met with American missile experts to set up a meeting for him but the Americans never showed up. Later, he said, his British handlers assured him that they had discussed his case with the CIA, and he didnât need to worry about reaching them. "Nothing to worry about, old chap."
But it appears the messages didnât get to weapons hunters, who told The Associated Press last month that they believed Modher had gone to Iran and said they never interviewed him. On Nov. 16, AP reported the U.S. weapons inspectorsâ comments that they were concerned Modher was providing expertise to the missile program in Iran. The military officers assigned to the search said they believed he crossed the Iraq-Iran border on foot after U.S. forces took Baghdad in the spring. The information was based on human intelligence. Colleagues of Modher said in recent interviews that they hadnât seen him since the war. They said they too believed he was in Iran. After the AP story ran in November, Modher said he asked his British handlers to spread the word he was still inside Iraq. "I gave all my information to the British liaison office," he told AP last week. "We had more than 25 meetings." Oops! Somebody dropped the ball, looks like it was the British this time. Either that, or our guys didnât read their mail.
Within a week of the AP story, Modher was interviewed by a four-person team from the U.S. weapons search, he said. He identified the only member of the team that he knew as an American named John Larrabee who worked previously as a chief missile inspector for the United Nations during the 1990s. Larrabee did not return an e-mail message seeking comment. A defense official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, confirmed Larrabee is working for the weapons hunt but declined to say whether he interviewed Modher. Members of the weapons teams wouldnât comment on any meeting, saying such confirmations put the teams and Iraqis they meet in danger. In an October report to Congress, the head of the weapons search said two Iraqis were shot, and one was killed, for cooperating with the search. Britainâs Ministry of Defense declined comment as well. And messages left for one of Modherâs British handlers werenât returned. Yup, sounds like the screwup is on their end.
According to Modher, he and Larrabee had a five-hour meeting at Baghdadâs convention center, the primary meeting point for Iraqis and members of the U.S.-led occupation authority. Modher said he remains in contact with the British officials who gave him a military identification pass in July which says he is "cooperating" with the coalition. He showed the pass, along with letters from other military officials working with Iraqâs new defense ministry, to AP. Modher is considered to be Iraqâs top missile expert. He was the father of the Iraqi Al-Samoud program and worked on Scud missiles like the ones that hit Israel and Saudi Arabia during the 1991 Gulf War. Good catch, keep him safe, OK?
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 3:22:10 PM ||
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#1
Screwup? What makes you think the Cousins want to share absolutely everything with the CIA?
Iraqi Police Service officers had the chance to hone their skills on a live-fire weapons range for the first time with the help of soldiers of the 382nd Military Police Detachment. The Army Reserve unit from San Diego is assigned to the 18th Military Police Brigade, part of Task Force 1st Armored Division. The weapons training is part of a three-week course called the Iraqi Police Integration Program. The program is intended to teach the existing Iraqi Police basic weapons fundamentals and tactics and for the Iraqi police to brush up on their skills. âThey are going to be more effective police officers,â said Cpl. Kenneth Johnson, a military policeman with the 382nd and the weapons range noncommissioned officer in charge. âMany of them have never fired a weapon.â Johnson said the weapons portion of the training consists of two days in the classroom to learn how to use the weapons and safety measures for their use and four days on the actual weapons range. The last day on the range is weapons qualification day. âNobody taught them the basics of shooting a firearm,â said Johnson. âThey were taught to put rounds down range and pray it hit the target.â
According to one police officer, the Iraqi police rarely practiced with a weapon at all. âThere was no shooting and there were no good pistols before,â said police Capt. Sammad Al Hayani. The fundamentals that are taught to the Iraqi Police include the basics of marksmanship such as breath control, the proper way to squeeze the trigger and sight alignment. Basic muzzle awareness is also taught. The firing range consists of paper targets containing human silhouettes and is at the rear of the police academy in Baghdad. The Iraqi Police practice their target shooting from three distances, with the longest distance being 15 meters using Glock 19 Series pistols. âThey had no idea of the capabilities of the weapons,â said Johnson. âI have to believe that under the old regime they were given no self confidence. It is good now to see them confident in their own abilities. They are going to be a more valuable asset when they learn to use their weapons.â
That's about the situation we'd expect from Sammy's regime: all guns and no maintenance...
âI think it is very good to help protect ourselves and our citizens,â said Hayani. âWe will now be able to do that.â
Saddam Hussein could be tried "in the next few weeks" and could be executed if convicted, an Iraqi Governing Council member said Monday. Other council members said the televised trial would likely begin later, perhaps by summer. Summer would be good, nothing but re-runs on TV.
The trial will begin "very soon, in the next few weeks," Mouwafak al-Rabii, a Shiite Muslim council member, told The Associated Press. He and other council members said they were sure the United States would hand Saddam over to the new Iraqi special tribunal for crimes against humanity, but differed on how soon a trial could be mounted against the former dictator. "I can tell you he is going to be the first," al-Rabii said. But Dara Noor al-Din, another council member, told AP that the order of trials would depend on the evidence. "Maybe he will be the first one, maybe he wonât," he said. Noor al-Din, a leading Kurdish judge, offered a more conservative estimate for the trial date: "Maybe four to six months." A third council member, Adnan Pachachi, said he expected the trial to start "sometime in March." That would still be close to the July 1 deadline for the U.S.-led occupation authority to hand over sovereignty to a new, transitional Iraqi government. The occupation authority has suspended executions in Iraq, but al-Rabii said it wouldnât take long for them to be reinstated - especially for Saddam. "All in favor, say "Aye"."
"We will get sovereignty on the 30th of June, and I can tell you, he could be executed on the 1st of July," said al-Rabii, a longtime human rights activist. A real human rights activist.
He said Saddam would have a fair trial, and that Saddam will have "the right to employ the best lawyers in the world, if he wants." All three council members said the trial would be televised. Goody, reality television at itâs best. I think July 1st is a bit optimistic for the execution, lotâs of evidence, motions, etc. Why the trial could run through all of July into August. Why donât we pencil the hanging in for 2 September? Heh heh heh.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 2:44:10 PM ||
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Quick Test:
Which will U.S. News Media cover:
The Kobie Bryant rape case
The Michael Jackson child-molestation case
Saddam Hussein's 'Crimes against Humanity' trial
The bachelor - Season III
Members of 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment confiscated a large number of weapons during a raid in the western region of the Al Anbar Province early this morning. The raid was designed to capture groups suspected of creating improvised explosive devices (IED) and initiating attacks upon Coalition Forces. In the raid, 37 individuals were captured, including eight who are on the unitâs high-value target list. The seized weapons included one IED, 100 anti-aircraft rounds, a number of grenades, rocket propelled grenades and launchers along with various small arms and ammunition. Soldiers also confiscated 200lbs of explosives and wire--items often used in the manufacture of IEDs.
Soldiers of the 4th Infantry Division and Task Force Ironhorse have, over the past 24 hours, conducted 196 patrols, nine raids and captured 45 individuals. Thirty-five of the patrols were joint operations conducted with the Iraqi police, the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps and the Border Guard in order to continually improve the safety and standard of living for the Iraqi people. Weapons and equipment confiscated in raids and patrols throughout the Task Force Ironhorse area of operation include 83 AK-47 assault rifles, two rifles, three pistols, one machine gun, one rocket propelled grenade launcher, one mortar system, nine mortar rounds, two rocket propelled grenades, five grenades, 15 mortar rounds, one container of artillery propellant, one block of C4, five blasting caps, 2,500 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition and two improvised explosive devices.
Soldiers with 1st Brigade found 300 57mm rounds after a visual observation by 2-17 Cavalry Regiment. An explosive ordnance disposal team cleared the site. No injuries were reported. Soldiers with 3rd Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment discovered several improvised explosive devices. They found one 107mm rocket, four Roland missiles and three 60mm mortar rounds. A boy led soldiers to the 107mm rocket. He will receive a reward. EOD cleared the site; no injuries reported. The Coalition for Iraqi National Unity turned in one DHSKA, three RPG launchers, four RPG rounds, one 60mm mortar tube, four 60mm rounds, seven HG and one NVG rifle scope to the 3rd Brigade tactical operations center.
EFL
Saddam Husseinâs capture is already reaping dividends for the U.S. military, providing intelligence that allowed U.S. soldiers to capture several top regime figures and uncover rebel cells in the capital, a U.S. general said Monday. Since Saddamâs capture on Saturday, U.S. Army teams from the 1st Armored Division have captured one high-ranking former regime figure â who has yet to be named â and that prisoner has given up a few others, Hertling said. All the men are currently being interrogated and more raids are expected, Hertling said.
The intelligence that led the military to the men came from the first transcript of Saddamâs initial interrogation, and a briefcase of documents Saddam carried with him at the time of his arrest, Hertling said. "Weâve already gleaned intelligence value from his capture," Hertling said. "Weâve already been able to capture a couple of key individuals here in Baghdad. Weâve completely confirmed one of the cells. Itâs putting the pieces together and itâs connecting the dots. It has already helped us significantly in Baghdad."
The intelligence has also given the U.S. military a far clearer picture of the guerrillasâ command and control network in the city, and has confirmed the existence of rebel cells whose existence was previously only suspected, Hertling said. From the initial batch of successes, Hertling said it was apparent that Saddam still played some role in leading the anti-U.S. insurgency. "Iâm sure he was giving some guidance to some key figures in this insurgency," Hertling said. Hertling said the 1st Armored Division had also received intelligence from other sources on attacks Monday in Baghdad. The division received tips earlier in December that a spate of car bombings would start in mid-December. Lots of nervous insurgents in Baghdad today, I suspect.
Posted by: rkb ||
12/15/2003 11:21:19 AM ||
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Even if he's not talking, this is great cover for the Iraqis who are talking or who want to start.
Posted by: Matt ||
12/15/2003 12:25 Comments ||
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who'd they nab I wonder - Izzat Ibrahim al Douri has to be next priority, no?
#3
The news that Saddam is cooperating may be part of an elaborate bluff. True or not, it should lead to some of his henchmen surrendering. Some of them are already wondering whether they should give up - hearing that he's singing like a canary isn't going to bolster their loyalty. This is the classic prisoner's dilemma - if they believe that the cause is lost, they'll calculate that an earlier surrender will secure better treatment than a surrender in the midst of a dawn raid - many US casualties later.
#4
It looks like Saddam had a briefcase. In in the briefcase were papers. And the papers pointed to Baghdad. Info to suggest that he had something to do with the ongoing terror attacks after all.
EFL. These items have been reported separately, but read the entire story for more. Note BOLDED item.
In the west of the country, Iraqi police and soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division captured the cell that was responsible for attacking a Spanish convoy Nov. 29, killing seven Spanish officials. As a result of intelligence provided by local Iraqis, the coalition launched Operation Panzer Squeeze and conducted 18 raids. Forces captured the 15 targets of the operation and a total of 41 enemy personnel, including the regional cell leader who masterminded the attack, Sanchez said.
In other offensive operations, troopers of the 101st Airborne Division captured a former regime brigadier general who was leading the Fedayeen Saddam paramilitary group in the city of Mosul. Soldiers captured 55 other suspected former regime elements in a series of simultaneous cordon-and-knock operations against 34 different targets across the city, Wednesday, Sanchez said. In such operations, soldiers seal off an area based on intelligence on the whereabouts of targeted people, then go door-to-door to find them.
In Baghdad, more than 300 Iraqi Civil Defense Corps personnel, an Estonian platoon and two battalions from the 1st Armored Division conducted a brigade-size cordon-and-search operation of an apartment complex on the northwest side of Baghdad. The units searched 2,400 apartments and 53 additional buildings to find former regime elements and others working against the Iraqi people. Labeled "Operation Bulldog Mammoth," the effort led to soldiers confiscating large amounts of weapons, ammunition, body armor and Saddam Hussein paraphernalia, and detaining 30 people.
No direct link to any one article--just a collection of the quotes related to yesterdayâs events that amuse the hell out of me. You know how I get when Iâm not medicated. Or Iâm heavily medicated... I forget.
"Why didnât you fight?" one Governing Council member asked Hussein as their meeting ended. Hussein gestured toward the U.S. soldiers guarding him and asked his own question: "Would you fight them?"
When the soldiers first found Saddam, he raised his hands above his head, military officials said. "I am Saddam Hussein," he said, according to the officials. "I am the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate." The U.S. soldiers reportedly responded: "President Bush sends his regards."
FoxNews Interview, May 4, 2003, Tony Snow with Rummy, the Omniscient
SNOW: Can Iraq be fully secure as long as he is unaccounted for?
RUMSFELD: Oh, I think so, yeah. Heâs not running Iraq. Let there be no doubt, he and his crowd are gone. Theyâre either in a tunnel some place, or in a basement hiding. Weâll find him, if heâs alive.
When asked âHow are you?â said the official, Saddam responded, âI am sad because my people are in bondage.â When offered a glass of water by his interrogators, Saddam replied, âIf I drink water I will have to go to the bathroom and how can I use the bathroom when my people are in bondage?â
[Iraqi Governing Council member] Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47âs and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.â I said, `When they arrested you why didnât you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.â And he started to use very colorful language. Basically, he used all his French."
"Itâs a black day in history," said Sadiq Husam, 33, a taxi driver in Ramallah, West Bank seat of the Palestinian Authority. "I am saying so not because Saddam is an Arab, but because he is the only man who said no to American injustice in the Middle East," he said.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 10:24:19 AM ||
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[Saddam's] trial will begin "very soon, in the next few weeks," Mouwafak al-Rabii, a Shiite Muslim council member, told The Associated Press. "We will get [Iraqi national] sovereignty on the 30th of June, and I can tell you, he could be executed on the 1st of July," said al-Rabii, a longtime human rights activist.
Well, tha[sic] capture of Sadaam takes the âfailure to captureâ issue off the table. Now that the economy is picking up (mall was packed yesterday), Iraq is getting better, prescription drugs on the way, education spending at an all-time high, no further terrorist attacksâwhat is left? Oh, yes, the capture of Bin Laden.
Soldiers searched the hut, made up of two rooms â a bedroom and a kitchen. No one else was found. The soldier who participated in the raid described it as "just two rooms and a sink, there was one bed and one chair and some clothes and that's about it." Soldiers seized two rifles, a pistol, a taxi and $750,000 in U.S. currency in a suitcase. They also found new clothes in unopened wrappers, which Odierno suggested meant Saddam had not been there long.
"We didn't stay there long. It smelled really bad," the soldier said. "It looked more like a garage than a proper house."
I guess with his boys dead out of the house, it made sense to downsize. Sounds like empty-nest syndrome.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 10:41 Comments ||
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#2
I am the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate.
Sounds like someone doesn't quite have a grasp on what is going on around him. Maybe he needs to be in the Old Tyrant's Home where his Depends⢠can be changed regularly. That is, until we can loan Old Sparky to the Iraqis for the execution.
#3
I am really amazed by the number of âLegal Expertsâ around the world. They are preoccupied that Saddam gets a âfairâ trial. Most of these legal eagles think that the world court or the u.n. should conduct the trial. I say to them: âHold your breath until that happens!â
EFL:
"My name is Saddam Hussein," the fallen Iraqi leader told U.S. troops in English as they pulled him out of a dank hole that had become his home. "I am the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate."
U.S. Special Forces replied: "Regards from President Bush." "I got your negotiation right here, pal."
The exchange, recounted by Maj. Bryan Reed, operations officer for the 1st Brigade, 4th Infantry Division one day after Saddamâs capture was announced, suggested the Iraqi leader may be willing to tell U.S. intelligence what he knows. Of the most immediate importance would be any information on the insurgency that has taken the lives of nearly 200 American soldiers. Heâs not going to talk without giggle juice.
Saddamâs exact whereabouts Monday were unclear. U.S. officials said only he had been moved to a secure location. The Dubai-based Arab TV station Al-Arabiya said he was taken to Qatar, though that could not be confirmed. CENTCOM forward HQ is in Qatar, makes sense.
The former dictator - one of the worldâs most-wanted fugitives - was captured by Special Forces during a massive raid on a farmhouse near Saddamâs hometown of Tikrit, according to Capt. Desmond Bailey. Troops from the 4th Infantry Division guarded the area while Special Forces found Saddam and pulled him out of the narrow hole. "We have him," they radioed to division commanders nearby, Bailey said. Saddam was then quickly taken away from the scene. "Itâs Miller Time!"
The tip off came from an individual who was arrested in Baghdad Friday and brought to Tikrit Saturday morning for an interrogation that made clear Saddam was in the area, according to Col. James Hickey, who led the raid. Soldiers were seconds away from throwing a hand grenade into the hole when Saddam surrendered, Hickey said. "Fire in the hole!"
"Hey, wait, I give up!"
The lack of communications equipment in Saddamâs cramped quarters indicated the ousted dictator was not commanding the resistance, Odierno said. He didnât have a phone for fear of being traced.
"He was just caught like a rat," said Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, whose 4th Infantry Division troops staged the raid. "When youâre in the bottom of a hole you canât fight back." In other news, rats protested being compared to Saddam.
However, during his arrest U.S. troops discovered "descriptive written material of significant value," a U.S. commander told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity. He declined to say whether the material related to the anti-coalition resistance. They have already bagged another former big shot, name unknown, from a lead developed from evidence found here. Developing.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:36:22 AM ||
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Update: American officials said interrogations of Saddam, whose current location was unknown, will focus first on getting intelligence on the the insurgency that has taken the lives of nearly 200 American soldiers. But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Saddam was not helping. "He has not been cooperative in terms of talking or anything like that," Rumsfeld told CBS' "60 Minutes" on Sunday. But U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling of the 1st Armored Division told The Associated Press in Baghdad that the first round of Saddam's questioning and documents in a briefcase found with him was "connecting the dots" in intelligence on the insurgency. Since Saddam's capture, U.S. Army teams from the 1st Armored Division have captured one high-ranking former regime figure - who has yet to be identified - and that prisoner has given up a few others, Hertling said. All the men are currently being interrogated and more raids are expected, Hertling said. "We've already gleaned intelligence value from his capture," Hertling said. "We've already been able to capture a couple of key individuals here in Baghdad. We've completely confirmed one of the cells. It's putting the pieces together and it's connecting the dots. It has already helped us significantly in Baghdad." Hertling said: "I'm sure he was giving some guidance to some key figures in this insurgency."
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:39 Comments ||
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#2
You will not see anythign for a while.
They havent gotten him cleaned up, happy, well fed.
Which will be followed by sleep deprivation, 24*7 bright lights in his closed cell, time disorientation (waking him at odd hours telling him its morning, advancing the days, then dragging them out, etc), altering his food to nothign but bland tasteless stuff. All this can be done without the "giggle juice" - he will break but will not know he has broken. He will talk and eventually willingly spill what he knows.
It takes time. And time we have plenty of, now that we have him.
The quicker big impact is what everyone else seems to have missed: the other mooks they have got to see him doing the perp walk thru the High Value prison in Baghdad. This will open a lot of those "Deck of Cards" mouths, because now they know, this is their LAST chance to make a deal and tell what they know.
#5
Saddam Hussein...a man who gives new meaning to the term "ace in the hole"
Posted by: Michael ||
12/15/2003 10:20 Comments ||
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#6
The Metallica might not work on Saddam. I'll bet Barney will; though. Heh.
That video was invaluable psyops. I'm with OS on this. It's going to improve cooperation among those 'Deck of Cards' (at least the ones we have in custody). I think it's also going to improve intelligence incoming from the Iraqi population who will also no longer fear his retribution.
Not to mention totally demoralizing all those who saw him as a hero for 'standing up to America'.
Posted by: Kathy K ||
12/15/2003 10:27 Comments ||
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#7
I'm still curious about that general who suddenly expired under questioning about a week ago. Wonder if he talked? Wonder if he's making a new life in Boise.
#8
Imagine for a minute that Bill Clinton had actually sent US soldiers to track down terrorists and/or tyrants. Do you think a US soldier would have ever uttered these words: "President Clinton sends his regards"? Not a chance.
Spot - I'm with you on the Wiggles.
Posted by: Tibor ||
12/15/2003 11:51 Comments ||
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#9
One might suppose that a fugitive dictator with $750,000 in walk-around cash might also be carrying a list of his off-shore bank account numbers?
Posted by: roger dodger ||
12/15/2003 12:14 Comments ||
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#10
Someone knows the Arabic for "Fi have the means to make you speak" and tell it with a strong german accent? Thinking about it he would be more frightened if the guy spoke with a Tikriti accent.
#11
Tibor -- We'll never know if any US soldier would have said those words. Their best chance to do so would have been after capturing Adid in Somalia and avenging their comrades, but we all know they never got that chance and we all know why.
Fortunately W. doesn't subscribe to Bill's "Cut-n-Run" strategy.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 13:02 Comments ||
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#12
Mike, Spot, etc., my nomination: William Shatner covering the Beatles' Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
#13
Raj -- Leonard Nimoy, "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins"
For that matter, ANYTHING off the "Golden Throats" CDs. Buddy Ebsen doing "Your Cheatin' Heart"; Mae West covering "Twist and Shout"...
Top it off by showing Incubus, the ground-breaking William Shatner horror movie with 100% Esperanto dialog!
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 13:40 Comments ||
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My vote is Wayne Newton singing "Tiny Bubbles" with an actual bubble machine for effect.
Really, we have the time to try all of the suggested methods...why not just fund a reseach project from Saddams petty cash suitcase he was carrying?
John Mayer, "Bigger Than My Body" (Worst. Keyboard. Riff. Ever.)
Annie Lenox, "Pavement Cracks."
Back to back to back episodes of Yu-Gi-Oh and Totally Spies. (Curse you, Cartoon Network!)
Posted by: Mike ||
12/15/2003 14:25 Comments ||
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#16
You guys are way too nice: If we make him watch the Democratic candidates' debates, he's singing like a nightingale within thirty minutes. "And then Chirac said to me..."
Posted by: Matt ||
12/15/2003 14:57 Comments ||
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#17
Guys - you're all wrong - Barney, Wiggles, the entire "Golden Throats" CD, and even Kenny G can be explained away as hallucinations from the giggle juice but Yoko Ono, well, that is pure hell.
#18
Have someone get an old-fashioned real slate blackboard, and have them drag their fingernails across it. Record it. Duplicate it. Duplicate part of it backwards. Run a background track of the same screeching fingernails ascending and descending the scale, getting louder and softer, ranging from about six dB to about 420 dB. Turn it on outside his cell, hit the "repeat" button, and walk away for a few hours. Go back, spoon up what's left, and interogate it. You'll get results. He'll tell you EVERYTHING, then start making shit up. If he stops or hesitates, reach for that "Play" button again. You won't need to actually touch it.
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
12/15/2003 16:40 Comments ||
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#19
OP, ouch, that hurt just thinking about it. What do you wanna know?
Posted by: Matt ||
12/15/2003 16:44 Comments ||
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#20
#5Micheal
I like"The Ace of Spades has been trumped".
As for music:Rod Stewart,Barry Manilow and others of that type.
When my son was about 6 years old,we were visiting Grandma.There were about 7 other kids about the same age,They all ran in the house to watch Barney.One of the adult cousins said you can't watch Barney anymore.Course all the kids started asking Why,How Come,etc.
This Dumb-ass says"Because I killed him".Man talk about screaming crying and gnashing of teeth.
Leaders throughout northern Iraq assembled in Mosul Saturday morning to discuss the progress in telecommunication made between the joint efforts of Coalition Forces and Iraqi citizens, and to develop a regional strategy for the next phase of communications.
Iraqâs two largest cities, Mosul and Baghdad, each had representatives â various signal officers of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) spoke on behalf of Mosul, while Baghdad was represented by Col. Tom Catudal, chief telecommunications adviser to L. Paul Bremer, Coalition Provisional Authority civilian administrator. Telecommunication experts from Dohuk, Kirkuk and Irbil were among the other major players in the summit.
âI think you all know that telecommunication in northern Iraq has really led the way for the rest of Iraq,â said Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus, 101st commander. âThe accomplishments here really have been extraordinary.â Communications ranks second on Petraeusâ project funding list, having spent nearly four million dollars on such acts as restoring phone lines, donating computers and telephones, and purchasing new equipment from the United States. Only reconstruction efforts to schools have taken more Coalition capital than communications advancements in northern Iraq, said Lt. Col. Welton Chase, Jr., 101st signal officer and commander of the 501st Signal Battalion.
The 101st Airborne Division has already completed 31 major communications projects in northern Iraq, including its donation of 212 computers to the Mosul University, an act which cost $99,790. The division is also responsible for 11 new internet cafes for the use of Iraqi citizens and the complete reconstruction of several post offices in the Nineveh Province. Thirty-two long-term communications projects are still in effect for the 101st, as well as 21 short-term projects, Chase said.
âWeâve had a lot of projects completed already, and weâve done so through relatively little investment,â Petraeus said, noting that many U.S. businesses, such as ATT and Bell South, have helped Coalition Forces by donating optic fiber to repair telephone lines, therefore helping to maintain a reasonable budget throughout reconstruction efforts. âWhat has made all of our success here isnât just the dollars â itâs not the even the donations â itâs really the initiative that [Coalition Forces and Iraqi citizens] together have demonstrated.â
Petraeus led the meeting by explaining the progress and the hindrances that have faced his soldiers throughout Operation Iraqi Freedom, then exchanged his ideas for the future of communication in Iraq with the handful of Iraqi telecommunication directors representing various cities in Nineveh Province. âOur vision for Northern Iraq is a very modern region in which people from many different ethnicities, tribes and religions work together, do business with each other, and they are all supported and enabled by a first-rate telecommunications system,â Petraeus said.
âSignalersâ of the 101st are presently involved in dozens of missions across northern Iraq, including acquiring a modern cable splicing machine from the United States, a purchase of approximately $42,000, said Maj. Jim Enicks, division communications officer. Currently, many Iraqis mend frayed telephone cables by hand.
Coalition Forces have also been active in getting Iraqi children on-line, working with computers, a goal which would improve both education and communications in Iraq. After opening the Scientific Club, a computer and Internet lab for children in primary and secondary school, to significant success, the 101st now plans to provide 17 new computers.
At the conference, Chase stressed to the Iraqis on-hand that when much of the 101st redeploys in February back to the U.S., the ensuing team of Coalition Forces in the area would help add to the success already made. âAll of you know that the Coalition Forces here are transitioning,â Chase said, âbut we have great soldiers coming, and they will not leave our support. They will continue the process weâve started toward a better Iraq.â
During the past 24 hours, the 82nd Airborne Division and subordinate units conducted 25 tactical checkpoints and eight cordon and searches. Units also performed 169 patrols, including 13 joint patrols with the Iraqi Border Guard and Iraqi police. These operations resulted in the killing of three and capture of 16 enemy personnel while suffering one U.S. death.
In 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne Divisionâs areas of responsibility, paratroopers began Operation Panther Backroads â an operation to interdict anti-coalition and smuggling activities in order to deny enemy forces freedom of movement. Units throughout the Task Force participated in the establishment of 25 tactical checkpoints and the execution of eight cordon and searches. The brigade searched 1351 vehicles and confiscated 15 AK-47s, two Enfield rifles, and other miscellaneous weapons and ammunition. The operation was successful and resulted in the capture of 13 enemy personnel.
Paratroopers on a patrol were engaged by small arms fire from four enemy personnel. The group returned fire, killing two enemy personnel and wounding two others. Although one of the wounded enemy personnel evaded capture, the patrol captured the other wounded individual and confiscated four AK-47âs. No friendly forces were injured during the engagement.
In addition, a reconnaissance engaged four armed enemy personnel northeast of Fallujah with small arms fire killing one. The remaining enemy personnel fled into a nearby house that was later searched by U.S. forces. The search resulted in the capture of four Iraqi males as well as the confiscation of two AK-47s, seven bolt-action rifles, and various kinds of ammunition.
In 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Divisionâs area of responsibility, a patrol was ambushed with rocket-propelled grenades (RPG) and small arms fire near Ar Ramadi. The unit returned fire killing one enemy personnel and recovered a RPG launcher with ammunition.
#2
Yeah, but they're gooood rifles. I'd rather have an Enfield than an A.K. -- especially if my guess is right and they're talking about the Lee-Enfield Mark III, which was made in the millions and used all over the British Empire. Great gun, shoots .30 caliber (.303 British service, 60K dead Russians in Afghanistan can't be wrong), and its bolt-action is an absolute joy to work. Smooth, smooth, smooth, to quote Eugene Jerome. (Though he was talking about something else...)
I think it was Clayton Cramer who wrote a while back about a re-enactor he knew who had a very nice Brown Bess musket. Nothing odd about that -- except it had been captured by an American G.I., in Vietnam.
#3
Dont underestimate the SMLE (Small Magazine Lee Enfield). If you want to reach out and touch someone, the SMLE is a great tool for that - steady, decent powered round, and deadly accurate in the hands of a trained marksman. A lto better then the typical loose machined AK action & barrle, and the 7.62x39 AK round.
#4
They are good but at short range they don't stantd at chance against assault rifles and at long range they require better marksmanship than found in ME.
In addition these are not only obsolete: the physical rifles are ooold so you can bet they have lost their precision (I also have my doubts about Iraqui maintenance) and that they are short on spare parts.
#5
That reference to Enfield rifles could also be to Enfield L70 Individual Weapons. Hard to believe that the bad guys haven't pilfered a few off the Brits in Basra.
Agree with the commenters above on the virtues of the SMLE--one of the greatest of the bolt-action rifles.
Posted by: Mike ||
12/15/2003 10:14 Comments ||
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#7
These Enfield may just be hand me downs a farmer would carry in the back of his truck to protect against varmits, human and otherwise. May be nothing significant to this.
Posted by: john ||
12/15/2003 12:44 Comments ||
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#8
Who's gonna be the first to suggest that "Operation Panther" is named after a NAZI tank?
_____borgboy sez inquiring minds want to know about them thar NAZI links...
Senior Iraqi security officials have told Newsday that the suicide bomber who struck the Baghdad Hotel on Oct. 12 spoke a dialect of Arabic different from the Iraqi dialect, the first solid indication that foreign fighters were involved in some of the car bombings here. Moments before detonating his bomb, the driver exchanged a few words with an Iraqi policeman guarding a checkpoint outside the hotel. The policeman, who was injured in the attack, told investigators the man did not speak like an Iraqi and sounded like he was from Saudi Arabia or Yemen. The bombing killed eight people outside the hotel, which housed U.S. intelligence officers and members of the Iraqi Governing Council. Other security officials have told Newsday at least two of the four suicide bombers who struck the Red Cross Thingy headquarters and three police stations throughout Baghdad on Oct. 27 appear to have been Saudis.
With a prolonged U.S. occupation, Iraq could become even more of a magnet for Arabs and Muslims who want to fight those they see as infidels occupying a Muslim land. Iraq shares porous borders with Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Jordan. U.S. officials have complained in recent months that fighters have slipped in from Syria, and they have urged Damascus to tighten security along the border. Islamic fighters waged a similar battle against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Tens of thousands of Muslim men volunteered to fight the Soviets, and they were based and trained in neighboring Pakistan.
U.S. military officials have singled out a top Hussein deputy, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, as a force behind recent attacks on American troops. But some Iraqi officials say al-Douri has leukemia and is likely expending most of his energies on avoiding capture. Under Hussein, al-Douri served as vice chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, the second most powerful post in Iraq — at least on paper. Last month, the United States offered a $10-million reward for information leading to al-Douriâs capture or killing. With Husseinâs capture, that makes al-Douri the most wanted man in Iraq. In October, U.S. officials said al-Douri had been involved in recruiting foreign fighters and funding attacks on coalition troops. That assessment is based on accounts from captured members of Ansar al-Islam, an al-Qaida-linked group that has been blamed by U.S. officials for car bombings and other attacks. If al-Douri is connected to Ansar, it would be the most solid indication to date that former regime officials are allied with foreign Islamic fighters who have slipped into Iraq in recent months. My guess is that the boomer was one of Binnyâs storm troopers or a fellow traveler thereof, especially if he was a Saudi. The bit about al-Douri hooking up with Ansar al-Isam is mainly a rehash, but the part about him involved on the recruiting and funding aspect of it is certainly interesting, since Ansar HQ (like al-Qaeda HQ) these days seems to be on the Iranian side of the border.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:32:08 AM ||
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The celebrations in Baghdad are decribed by an Iraqi as:
"...reminisent of the victory scene at the end of Return of The Jedi, when the Death Star was destroyed signifying the end of the Empire. The scene here in Baghdad is truly one worthy of a John Williams soundtrack."
If there are Star Wars geeks in Iraq, maybe it is only a matter of time before these people become a military superpower themselves.
Posted by: mhw ||
12/15/2003 12:25:18 AM ||
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A joint police and military force in Central Sulawesi will soon launch a search-and-seizure raid for sharp weapons in the violence-torn regencies of Poso and neighboring Morowali to prevent retaliatory attacks against a well-armed hit-and-run gang that has been terrorizing Christian villages of late, according to authorities on Saturday. The well-armed gang is reportedly JI, though Iâm confused as to why retaliating against them would be a bad thing ...
The raids will involve thousands of police and military personnel who have been deployed across the two regencies following the series of attacks in the last two months, Central Sulawesi Police chief Brig. Gen. Taufik Ridha was quoted by Antara as saying. Currently, there are some 3,400 police and soldiers on guard at security posts along the trans-Sulawesi highway in Poso and Morowali. The national news agency did not specify when the new operation would start. Nor did Ridha, who declined to give out any more information on the planned raids, but said that during the operations, security forces would examine all drivers and passengers traveling to and from Poso and Morowali to check for sharp weapons. Like knives and stuff ...
He appealed to local people to immediately hand over their guns and other sharp weapons to nearby security posts before the arm raids were launched. Those caught with firearms and other weapons during the operation will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, he warned. The planned raids have become necessary in order to capture the remaining suspects blamed for the recent attacks in Poso and Morowali, which killed at least 20 people between October and December, as well as preventing those who may be bent on revenge. The death toll included at least eight people who died in the latest attacks in November and December.
The latest incident took place in Kasintuwu neighborhood on Dec. 5, killing Hidayat, 17, and injuring Vivin, 21, who were shot, Antara reported. The worst incident since the December 2001 peace deal was inked, hit Poso on Oct. 12, this year, when masked gunmen launched pre-dawn attacks on three mainly Christian villages of Saatu, Pantangolemba and Pinedapa, killing at least nine people. Three days earlier, three people were killed when what appeared to be same gang, according to witness accounts, raided Beteleme, also a mainly Christian village in Morowali and burned 30 homes and a church.
Ridha admitted the authorities were facing difficulties in arresting all the attackers because it was believed that they fled into the jungle and/or are being helped by some locals. The one-star general attributed the difficulties to the refusal of certain local people to give information on the identity and whereabouts of the Christian-killing gang. Several villagers are believed to have had some contact with attackers, but they have declined to reveal the identities to police, he added. A number of suspects have been captured, some have been killed in shootouts with the police, but several others remain at large. Police have said the simultaneous attacks were well-planned to destabilize Poso after the peace deal.
Coordinating Minister for Peopleâs Welfare Jusuf Kalla, who brokered the peace pact, has said the attackers were "well-trained" and able to carry out the attacks efficiently. Meanwhile, Vice President Hamzah Haz very eloquently deduced that the renewed violence indicated that a "certain group" did not want to see peace restored in Poso. He also recommended that the police to step up vigilance against such a group who was terrorizing villagers, but stopped short of speculating on who the "certain group" could be. Theyâre the folks who need no introduction ...
The police have accused the attackers of being members of, or linked to, Jamaah Islamiyah, a regional terror network blamed for a wave of bombings across the country.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:55:46 AM ||
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#1
"Iâm confused as to why retaliating against them would be a bad thing ..."
Simply because they are Christians,it would be wrong for Christians to kill Moslems in self- defense.That is what the Qurran says so it must be right.
At least 10 Muslim rebels and kidnappers were killed along with two soldiers during fighting over the weekend that breached a fragile truce in the southern Philippines, a general said Monday. This is like what, the fourth violation of the cease-fire by MILF?
Local army brigade chief Brigadier General Agustin Dimaala said the fighting broke out on Saturday while his forces were pursuing members of the Pentagon kidnapping gang believed to be holding a car dealer abducted on December 8. As his troops closed in on the gang near the towns of Datu Piang and Talitay, the kidnappers sought refuge with members of the Muslim separatist group Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), Dimaala said. Returning to the nest, no doubt ...
It sparked a gunbattle between the rebels and kidnappers and the military that raged until Sunday, leaving 10 MILF and Pentagon members and two troops dead. MILF spokesman Eid Kabalu confirmed that fighting had broken out but said there were no reports of casualties among the MILF. He earlier said about a dozen soldiers had been killed but later conceded he could not be sure how many troops were slain.
"I just picked that number out of my butt..."
The Pentagon captive, car dealer Norman Sia, was not found. Kabalu said the MILF was attempting to defuse the tension under an agreement to turn over any kidnappers and their captives if they entered rebel territory. Except ... theyâre not.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:50:56 AM ||
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AFTER five months of operations, the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) declared Sunday it is slowing down its campaign against suspected members of the Abu Sayyaf group (ASG) in Palimbang, Sultan Kudarat and would instead focus on dismantling a local kidnap gang. Brig. Gen. Alexander Yano, commander of the Armyâs 601st Infantry Brigade, said they would launch an operation against the Abu Sufian gang, a group of local criminals who figured in the abduction of a Korean national and a hotelier in General Santos last year. Is this the same as the Pentagon Gang or a different group of banditos?
He said they have monitored that members of the kidnap gang have reportedly started to regroup in the area. "The group has already been conducting some activities so it is important for us to neutralize them now," Yano said. Yano said the Abu Sufian gang was the group which primarily helped about 50 members of the Abu Sayyaf, led by Khadaffy Janjalani, to settle in the area after arriving in the coastal village of Libua, Palimbang last July 5. Palimbang Mayor Labualas Mamansual said the Abu Sufian gang has reduced to at least 13 to 15 active members after some of them surrendered to authorities more than a year ago. Mamansual, who had led negotiations for the release of Korean kidnap victim Jae Keon Yoon and hotelier Carlos Belonio, said the group also suffered from arrests and the killing of leaders during several encounters with government forces over the last few months. Among its prominent members, who were earlier arrested, were brothers Edris and Ismael Binago. An elder brother of the two suspects, Dido Binago, and cousin Alo Binago have been tagged as the over-all leaders of the kidnap gang.
Yep. That's what I'd call a family business...
Yano claimed that the presence of the ASG in the area has been "heavily reduced" due to their continuing operations. He added they would continue operations against the ASG until the group is totally decimated.
"Decimated" means one in ten dead. I think he means wiped out, but in the Philippines you can never be quite sure...
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:47:01 AM ||
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Umm, did anybody say that it would? I guess the spin is beginning ...
Nearly obliterated by Sundayâs stunning news of Saddam Husseinâs capture was a bomb explosion apparently intended to kill Pakistanâs military president, Pervez Musharraf. "It sent a chill down my spine," said Joseph Cirincione, a nuclear proliferation expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "Thatâs a country with 30 to 50 nuclear weapons."
And some mighty tight turbans...
Saddamâs capture may decrease attacks in Iraq by members of his Baath Party, Cirincione said, "but it is largely irrelevant to the larger war against terrorism. Saddam means nothing to al-Qaida and all the al-Qaida-like forces."
Then why have they been swarming to Iraq to fight under his banner?
The war on terrorism lost a figurehead in Saddam, not a mastermind or even a major leader. Although his capture gave the United States and the Bush administration a huge psychological victory in Iraq, the effort to defeat the forces of anti-American terrorism worldwide was mostly unaffected.
That's a disputable statement. Sammy's capture marked hump day in Iraq. He's not only the figurehead, but he's the signature on the checks, as well. Over the course of the next few months that money's going to run out and the "resistance" will wind down. The remainder will have to rely on Soddy money.
Still, the placid surrender of the second most wanted man in the world may have sent a message to Osama bin Laden that more resources could be brought to bear on running him to ground.
Or on slapping Syria and/or Iran...
Even as he basked in the news from Iraq, President Bush acknowledged a distinction Sunday. "The war on terror is a different kind of war, waged capture by capture, cell by cell and victory by victory," he said. The president didnât mention his year-old rationale that war against Saddam was necessary to defeat terrorism. That rationale - and its accompanying claims of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction - has been dropped from administration pronouncements.
He doesn't have to repeat himself. He should mention it one more time, in a speech at Salman Pak, before handing over power to the Iraqis...
Some experts expect al-Qaida and its adherents to stage a major attack to regain the initiative, as the humbling of Saddam pushes recent terrorist strikes in Turkey and Saudi Arabia to the back pages of newspapers. "Thereâs no doubt that al-Qaidaâs desire to remain foremost in the news has suffered a grievous setback," said Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert at the RAND Corp., a research and analysis company in Washington. "This may put more pressure on al-Qaida to act, and to provoke them to elbow their way back into the news."
Binny and Sammy: competing egos?
Thereâs no doubt, Hoffman asserted, that the news about Saddam was "enormously disquieting" to bin Laden. "In terms of sending a message and demonstrating American resolve, itâs quite significant," Hoffman said. "With all of Saddamâs resources, if he can be found then it has to discomfort bin Laden."
Assuming Binny's still in existence, which is problemmatical...
He predicted that Saddamâs capture would encourage terrorist leaders to change habits and upgrade their security. This creates both challenges and opportunities for terrorist-hunters, Hoffman said. The challenges come in trying to find someone who may burrow in more deeply. The opportunities may arise "when someone is trying to move from one bolt hole to another or is forced to change their tradecraft in trying to avoid detection," he said.
If Binny, assuming he's alive, burrows in any further he's not going to be seeing anyone. At all. You can't run things when you can't meet anybody. Executives spend their lives in meetings...
Jean-Robert Leguey-Feilleux, whoâs been teaching a course in international terrorism for 30 years at St. Louis University, was unconvinced that Saddamâs capture would demoralize al-Qaida. "I donât think this is going to put much of a dent in bin Ladenâs network," he said. "Al-Qaida is capitalizing on the unpopularity of the U.S. occupation in Iraq and has recruited for its forces, much as in the Afghan war against the Soviet Union. For al-Qaida, this U.S. involvement is a blessing."
The American involvement in Iraq also has diverted attention from the pivotal Islamic country of Pakistan, thought to be the hiding place of many al-Qaida leaders, including bin Laden. Sundayâs bomb exploded moments after Musharrafâs motorcade passed a bridge near Pakistanâs capital, Islamabad. It marked the second assassination attempt on Musharraf since he incited extremists by assisting in the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. "The larger war against terrorism is going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan and other places in south Asia and in terror cells around the world," said Carnegieâs Cirincione. "The president has reason to celebrate," he said, "but we should all be worried about what would happen if Pakistan loses control over the warheads or the country falls into the hands of fundamentalists."
I guess no matter what the quality of the silver lining, there's always a cloud around it.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:22:47 AM ||
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#1
Binny must be worried he'll have to share virgins with Sammy.
Posted by: Mr. Davis ||
12/15/2003 0:33 Comments ||
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#2
any chance that sammy will be visited by his old mate donny rumsfeld to relive the good old days? or aren't I allowed to discuss the chummy relations between the US and sammy in the 80s?
#3
Back in the 80s.... I did some crazy things too. So what.
al-Qaida and its adherents to stage a major attack to regain the initiative
I never knew they had the initiative in the first place. They came in, knocked down the towers, damaged the Pentagon, and then they got severely pounded in Afghanistan. So much for having an initiative. I'm not even convinced that Binny is still alive (he hasn't sent me a postcard in almost 2 years).
Posted by: Rafael ||
12/15/2003 1:01 Comments ||
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#4
"...exploded moments after Musharrafâs motorcade passed..." Clumsy. If jihadis in Iraq were able to remote-trigger IED's, could jihadis in Pakland not do likewise? As I conjectured yesterday, the boom may have been staged to justify Pervy thinning the crop. If not, then it really justifies Pervy thinning the crop.
#2 any chance that sammy will be visited by his old mate donny rumsfeld to relive the good old days? or aren't I allowed to discuss the chummy relations between the US and sammy in the 80s?
No. Please. By all means. Wallow in your dumb all you want. Implicit in your ignorant comment is the notion that just because we were stupid enough to work with him in the past, we can never wise up and remove a threat that you would argue we created. You contradict yourself in a most amusing way, so please continue with your spew.
Posted by: Islam Sucks ||
12/15/2003 1:14 Comments ||
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#6
rofl, good one islam sucks, only one thing, you're doing it again just somewhere else
#7
any chance that sammy will be visited by his old mate donny rumsfeld to relive the good old days? or aren't I allowed to discuss the chummy relations between the US and sammy in the 80s?
If the US hadn't worked with Saddam to prevent Iran from fomenting Islamic revolution among the Shiite minorities in the Gulf region, the Foreign Service should have been all fired. (Just as if the US hadn't been working with Stalin to defeat Hitler during WWII, the State Department should have been shut down). Standing aside while Iran conquered Iraq and established Shiite theocracies throughout the region might have pleased the lefties, but would have led to an Iranian monopoly on the Gulf region's oil reserves, potentially strangling the world economy.
This is why everyone pitched in to prevent an Iranian victory - Russia, China, France, Britain and all of the Gulf states, with money and weaponry. Helping Saddam avoid losing wasn't the same as agreeing with all of his policies - we buy goods from China, which helps support a totalitarian government, but that doesn't mean we agree with the Chinese government's policies.
"It is fortuitous that last week Iraqâs Governing Council announced its intention to create a war crimes tribunal. Several members of the council want public and open trials, preferably televised trials that demonstrate the thoroughness and fairness of the criminal investigations as well as the depravity of the crimes.
Unfortunately the usual defeatists in the US and Europe sneered and dismissed the proposal, but former Saddamite sidekick Tariq Aziz took that announcement seriously. One report has Aziz hiring French attorney Jacques Verges, who defended the Nazi Gestapo chief Klaus Barbie and the Marxist terrorist, Carlos.
Saddam should ask Verges for his card."
I guess the French will play a role in post-war Iraq after all.
Posted by: Tibor ||
12/15/2003 2:07 Comments ||
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#9
Zheng Fei, while I do agree that trying to reign in the Iranian revolution was one of the main reasons, it is important to note that it was Iraq that commenced the conflict, as sammy, being the opportunistic idiot that he was, thought that he could extend his influence. My concern with that conflict was the willingness of the US admistration to work with SH, knowing full well his reputation. With regards to Iran, while I don't have much sympathy for any theocracy, let alone one such as in Iran, I would think that the reason that the US was so keen to help Iraq was because of the hostage situation and the removal of a US backed regime, it was a slap in the face which did not look good on the international stage. Lets not forget that the former Iranian regime was not exactly a picture of human rights but the US was more than willing to support. Oh, one last thing, with regards to the containment of the islamic revolution, lets not forget the sale of weapons/military parts to Iran during the 80s. As Islam Sucks has pointed out, a mistake may have been made in those years but this does not mean that other mistakes are not being made now.
One thing that concerns me more than anything, and to some extent I see this on this forum, is the belief that the current US (foreign)policy is infallible, it may very well be but I do think that in a democracy, I have the right to question it without being automatically labelled anti-american. I don't disagree with the invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of SH but I'm sick of hearing that it was because of wmds or to liberate the iraqi people. If the liberation of a people was the main reason, other countries would have come a long way in front of Iraq, as for the wmds, still can't make up my mind, was the really intelligence that bad?
#10
My concern with that conflict was the willingness of the US admistration to work with SH, knowing full well his reputation.
We worked with Stalin during WWII, despite hearing about his reputation. Why should working with tyrants be an issue when national security interests are at stake and the alternatives are worse?
With regards to Iran, while I don't have much sympathy for any theocracy, let alone one such as in Iran, I would think that the reason that the US was so keen to help Iraq was because of the hostage situation and the removal of a US backed regime, it was a slap in the face which did not look good on the international stage.
Why is taking revenge for the hostage situation bad? And what about the Iranian-sponsored massacre of over 200 marines in Beirut? Are American marines just cannon fodder in your eyes? Retaliation for the removal of the Shah is also bad? Should we now reward countries for becoming our enemies and sponsoring terrorist acts against us, not to mention attacking shipping in the Persian Gulf?
Lets not forget that the former Iranian regime was not exactly a picture of human rights but the US was more than willing to support.
The Shah wasn't perfect, but he did not slaughter tens of thousands of his people. Whatever his faults, he was preferable to the Communist Mossadegh and his successor the Ayatollah Khomeini. More importantly, he was on our side in the Cold War, which had yet to be won.
Oh, one last thing, with regards to the containment of the islamic revolution, lets not forget the sale of weapons/military parts to Iran during the 80s.
Reagan tried to free the American hostages taken in Lebanon with this gesture. He succeeded, only at the expense of damaging the credibility of the US posture on hostage-taking which was previously to not negotiate on these matters. The deal was a one-off - a temporary truce and a plea for goodwill which was not reciprocated by the Iranians. The Iranian interpretation of Reagan's parley as more evidence of American weakness led to Iranian overreach later in the decade - US Navy ships sank a fair number of Iranian naval vessels later in the decade when they attacked oil tankers in the Gulf. The real paper tiger was revealed to be Iran.
#11
We worked with Stalin during WWII, despite hearing about his reputation. Why should working with tyrants be an issue when national security interests are at stake and the alternatives are worse?
...and I'd like to thank the US personally for Yalta and the years under Soviet occupation under which my parants, and to some extent myself, had to endure.
Retaliation for the removal of the Shah is also bad? Should we now reward countries for becoming our enemies and sponsoring terrorist acts against us
Retaliation for the removal of the Shah is bad. The US has(and has had) unparallel economic and military might to promote democratic institutions in many countries over the decades, it has failed to do so in many instances. Rather than support a regime such as that of the fromer Shah of Iran, it should have promoted/aided democratic alternatives. While the cold war can be used as an excuse, in the eyes of many countries, the US was viewed as the defender of freedom/democracy, the support of regimes purely for economic expediency has created a number of the current problems. Unfortunately while there are some discussions to this effect now, the US is still supporting a number of regimes with dubious human rights records. I dare to think what would have happened if the US (through the OSS) had continued to support Vietnam's quest for independance (from the French/China/Japan) and not pulled out to give the French the illusion of past glory in Indochina. Many of those movements were driven into Soviet hands purely because there was no alternative, before becoming totally corrupted and devoid of any human decency.
#12
I am atonished at the lack of the basic honestity of First World journalists. I am atonished at their lack of basic human decency as they prefer millions to be raped, tortured and killed as long as that can piss the United States and give them a converstaion theme during their bourgeois parties in their bourgeois houses.
However, not all is lost. I have seen journalists who looked genuinely happy and smiling about the capture of Sadam Hussein, they showed images about the victims those people our plum bourgeois leftists never cared about. But those journalists don't work at CNN, or at the BBC. They work at Kurdistan TV.
#13
I dare to think what would have happened if the US (through the OSS) had continued to support Vietnam's quest for independance (from the French/China/Japan) and not pulled out to give the French the illusion of past glory in Indochina.
Hold on here! The USA has a record of supporting national independance. And as a result was often in conflict with the old Europe powers. Suez was a good example.
Many of those movements were driven into Soviet hands purely because there was no alternative, before becoming totally corrupted and devoid of any human decency.
Simply not true! And your language reveals the truth. These are people who in a market place of ideas could not win. Their *only* alternative was to seek support from a patron (and ideology) who did not care whether people wanted it or not.
You want the USA as your patron then you need to show commitment to democracy, human rights and civil liberties. THIS IS THE REASON THAT THE NORTH VIETNAM REGIME AND OTHERS DID NOT SEEK USA SPONSORSHIP.
#14
phil_b, maybe not, but you should be (Your heart and mind are certainly American!).
Between you and Zhang Fei, you boys took care of old Igs and his dumb DNC talking points!
#15
...and I'd like to thank the US personally for Yalta and the years under Soviet occupation under which my parants, and to some extent myself, had to endure.
Easy for you too say Igs. If we hadn't of supported Stalin, Hitler would have slaughtered your parents most likely. He would have been able to win the war ( All those armies moving to the western front would have hurt), and we could all be under NAZI rule. It's easy to look back and say " They should have done this, so it's their fault! "
However, were you actually there? Did you FEEL Stalins terror? Or maybe we should have started a war with Russia right after WW2? That way, we could nuke the USSR before they even had Nuclear Technology. Would have saved us alot of trouble to just nuke Moscow and Stalingrad( What was left of it ).
You judge us because we didn't act to save you from suffering that had yet to occur ( AKA Cold War ). However, in our situation, would you have freed us at the enormious cost of your peoples lives, or value our lives above yours?
I think everyone here knows what your answer is.
Posted by: Charles ||
12/15/2003 4:51 Comments ||
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#16
#13 I dare to think what would have happened if the US (through the OSS) had continued to support Vietnam's quest for independance (from the French/China/Japan) and not pulled out to give the French the illusion of past glory in Indochina.
Hold on here! The USA has a record of supporting national independance. And as a result was often in conflict with the old Europe powers. Suez was a good example.
Guys, Vietnam was not that good an example. What it was an example of was US policy to heed the wishes of allies, juxtaposed with good-ol' Euroimperialism. We'd foolishly promised we'd restore colonies ante bellum. Otherwise we might've listened to our soldiers and sailors: New Caledonia was the one part of the South Pacific worth keeping. The French were very glad to see us defend it but very bad hosts for COMSOPAC. The Brits have since mostly allowed Nature to take its course peacefully. Former French colonies had to fight Wars of Independence to break free. See also Algeria. Am I being partisan? Fie.
#17
--Lets not forget that the former Iranian regime was not exactly a picture of human rights but the US was more than willing to support. --
The Shah wasn't perfect, but he did not slaughter tens of thousands of his people. Whatever his faults, he was preferable to the Communist Mossadegh and his successor the Ayatollah Khomeini. More importantly, he was on our side in the Cold War, which had yet to be won.
The Shah was also a Westernizer, which is the real beef the Islamacists had with him. Equal schooling for girls, no veils, modern medicine, newspapers and TV in villages. Caused lots of cognitive dissonance in traditional places & provided the ground support for the Mullahs.
#18
We can expect trolls for several weeks to log onto rantburg and other blogs as well to jerk off about how evil the US is. They're shocked and awed that Bush got his trifecta.
#19
With respect to Stalin, there was an subversive element in the US government that sucessfully hid Stalin's brutality.
With respect to the US's quasi-war with Iran, the hostages weren't the issue. The issue was keeping the straits of Hormuz open to allow oil to flow into the world markets. The USN has been consistently protected trade routes since the Tripolitan War.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 8:47 Comments ||
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#20
I know it's tough for you Igs...but don't despair; even though your grandchildren will surely be disappointed to discover that you were too weak to stand up for the millions raped, murdered and dumped in mass graves, you can always weasle your way out of it by telling them:
"I didn't disagree with the invasion of Iraq, but i just didn't like the way it was presented to me. I felt it was, like, more important to allow the killing, raping and torture to continue until a someone could verbalize the conflict in a manner more acceptable to me.
Your grandchildren will still think you puss, but at least it will give you a shred of dignity to delude yourself with.
#21
Exactly, Badanov: I think Old Patriot was the first to notice the relationship between Bush's progress in the War against Terror and the manifestation of Troll Activity.
Igs's memory is quite selective: Photos of Rummy shaking Sammy's hand are bandied about without noting that the handshake occurred in the EARLY 80's, LONG BEFORE the Gassing of the Kurds and the subsequent breakoff of military support of Sammy. It was after that breakoff that huge amounts of arms were purchased from the Soviets and the French. But that fact does not serve Igs's purposes, so he focusses on the tiny, and ancient, fraction of sales made by Americans so he can beat up on his fellow americans and shame them into doing what he wants them to do. He claims to have gotten pissed when we dealt with saddam then, and now tries to piss on the parade After we've dealt with him now.
Because congratulating people does not serve his purpose of manipulating them: A practice abusive spouses follow as avidly as do Igs and his trollish compatriots...
Go away, you manipulative little tyrannical wanna-be: Nobody was calling you unpatriotic: just stupid, unreasonable, and deliberately unpleasable. Do us all a favor, go buy The Sims, load it up on your computer, and relieve that desire to control REAL people.
#22
What a classic line:
"I don't disagree with the invasion of Iraq and the overthrow of SH but I'm sick of hearing that it was because of wmds or to liberate the iraqi people"
Discussion between IGS and his grandfather:
"gosh..grandpa...why didn't you do anything when they rounded up the jews..they were your neighbors, your friends, you knew what would happen to them!"
"Well, son...actually, I didn't disagree with those who risked their lives to prevent them from being sent to concentration camps, but I did nothing to help them becaue I was sick of hearing the say that they were doing it.... [scoff, roll eyes]... to liberate them." HA! All the smart people, like me, knew that the only reason anyone supposedly "stood tall" and risked their lives to help the Jews was because, they didn't want their favorite Jewish run shops to close. You see, grandson, the people who risked their lives to help the Jews, were actually very selfish individuals, unlike me."
#23
Tibor, your posting from Strategy Page, shows a fortuitous assembly of an Iraq Tribunal prior to the weekend story. One might almost say coincidental.
We have a reversal of roles going on here. Traditionally, the totalitarian states promote the "show trial" as a validation of the regime. Now, amazingly, we have the International Community demanding the "show trial". I sense that the Iraqi people "who are not ready to handle democracy" might give the world a real example of justice.
Posted by: john ||
12/15/2003 9:52 Comments ||
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#24
Would someone explain to me the purpose of a trial in the case of Saddam? I thought trials were conducted to examine the evidence with an eye towards establishing guilt.
Is there any doubt here? Saddam was the head of a tyrranical government; his face was everywhere. The rape squads and the torturers operated with his authority, even if he didn't sign off on every one of their victims.
Yeah, let's air the crimes his regime committed in his name. The lower-ranking members of his regime -- yeah, try them; there's a chance some of them may deserve life in prison instead of the death penalty -- but the upper ranks?
Their trials should consist of establishing their identities then determining the penalty.
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 10:06 Comments ||
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#25
The US has(and has had) unparallel economic and military might to promote democratic institutions in many countries over the decades, it has failed to do so in many instances. ... Many of those movements were driven into Soviet hands purely because there was no alternative, before becoming totally corrupted and devoid of any human decency.
The myth of US omnipotence is all a bunch of wishful thinking. The Shah fell because (1) Carter indicated he wouldn't support the Shah's putting down of Khomeinist Revolution (with arms shipments and possibly US troops) and (2) Carter figured he could deal with the Ayatollahs, with whom he wanted to start off on the right footing. Instead of rewarding Carter for helping them gain power, the Ayatollahs convinced themselves that (1) they had succeeded entirely on their own and (2) allowing the Shah to fall was evidence of American weakness. This Khomeinist arrogance was what led to the hostage crisis and then the Marine barracks bombing. Two US presidents made significant conciliatory gestures towards Iran (Carter by not interfering in the Ayatollahs' ascension to power and Reagan by rewarding Iranian-sponsored hostage-taking in Lebanon with arms shipments) and were soundly rebuffed.
The US couldn't even get as staunch an ally as Singapore (which sent troops to Iraq) to avoid denouncing Bill Clinton as an adulterer and a liar for criticizing Singapore's decision to cane an American teenager. (And Singapore flogged the teenager despite strong American entreaties). What possibility is there of influencing other governments? The fact is that the US managed to push some countries towards democracy only when its leaders were ready for it.
Others who are not ready will resist with all their might, and nothing short of an American invasion will change that. The fact is that the US has had a very difficult time getting even its friends to go along with its policy objectives - the dictatorial regimes that were allied to the US had even less in common with America - they could switch over to the Soviet Union at the drop of a hat. Egypt, Iraq and Syria all aligned with the Soviets did this despite being fascist regimes at heart.
The guy who was scheduled for the plastic shredder, whose relatives were to be butchered or his daughter/wife was to be raped DOESN'T care if the americans came because they disliked Saddam, because of the WMDs, because of the oil or to get more toys from Santa Claus. What he sees is that he and his beloved ones have been spared a horrible fate.
The ones who care about America's motivations (that they automatically suppose evil) are the leftist bourgeois in the comfort of the American and European campusses.
Posted by: B ||
12/15/2003 11:40 Comments ||
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#28
What it was an example of was US policy to heed the wishes of allies, juxtaposed with good-ol' Euroimperialism. We'd foolishly promised we'd restore colonies ante bellum.
American leaders played the cards they were dealt. They could have insisted on independence for the colonies, but well-organized Communist movements (trained and funded by the Soviets) stood ready to fill the vacuum. France could also have decided to make a separate peace with the Soviets - note that the Soviet Union preserved Russian empire after the 1917 Revolution, and acknowledged Chinese rule over Tibet and East Turkistan. The Soviets had no problem with imperialism, as long as its allies remained in the fold.
#29
Igs:"I'd like to thank the US personally for Yalta and the years under Soviet occupation under which my parants, and to some extent myself, had to endure."
Yeah, it's our fault. We put Stalin in power, since we were such big backers of the Oktober Revolution, right?
#31
"I'd like to thank the US personally for Yalta and the years under Soviet occupation under which my parants, and to some extent myself, had to endure."
#35
true german ally..hmmm...let's see...Ivory coast, Liberia (were the US had to be dragged kicking and screaming just about), Sierra Leone - they just love skinning people in those countries, Congo, the good old Rwanda a few years back that no one gave a toss about. Then there's also Burundi, Sudan, Uganda...geez, I didn't realise, some of these are muslim, silly me. I'm just wondering, why did Iraq assume such greater importance than some poor african country?
#36
Igs, my question was not "which countries deserve liberation" (many more on that list) but why is Iraq "rather low on the list"?
The thing is that all the countries you named should be free, yes. The difference: They don't pose a threat to the world community as Saddam's Iraq did.
But even without that threat I'd rank Iraq very high. And it was the only country under "UN-probation" (which it violated).
And Ruanda is exactly the example of what happens when you let the UN deal with these kind of "problems".
#37
True German Ally, granted that I should have put Iraq higher on the list, my argument is however, how come no real effort is being made to address similar issues in other countries (if the freeing of the Iraqi ppl argument is used), the US is not prepared to commit the same resources to go in and sort out Congo once and for all (then again neither is anyone else). As to being a threat to the world community, it's easy to argue either way and I will admit that the prevailing public perception before the war was that it was a threat (whether this perception was manipulated or not). The Iraqi army was well known to have been pretty much in shambles due to the UN sanctions (ie lack of spare parts/some weapons etc), it did break the embargo on many occasions but it just couldn't in the quantities that it needed to. As to the wmds, I was just as convinced as anyone else that SH had stacks of them, then again I have seen technical literature (prior to the war) indicating that even if he had manufactured any of the stuff (which he once did), alot of it would have been pretty much useless after a few years. Facts such as these were not picked up and analysed in the public forum to the same extent as statements such as "And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.", which were clearly untrue or based on very selective use of intelligence.
#38
true german ally..hmmm...let's see...Ivory coast, Liberia (were the US had to be dragged kicking and screaming just about), Sierra Leone - they just love skinning people in those countries, Congo, the good old Rwanda a few years back that no one gave a toss about. Then there's also Burundi, Sudan, Uganda
The US got into Iraq mainly for a number of reasons: (1) Muslim states had to be deterred from using plausibly deniable mass killings of Americans as an instrument of state policy, potentially up to and including the use of nukes in American cities, (2) Iraq posed a long-term strategic threat to the independence of the Gulf states, which was a dagger pointed at the heart of the US, and the world economy,(3) Iraq was tying down US forces that may have had to be used elsewhere. WMD's and human rights were important, but probably not the critical decision points.
With regard to point Muslim state sponsorship, Muslim countries have been deploying terrorists against the US for decades*. Saddam and the PLO sponsored Abu Nidal's organization as a limited liability corporation that was responsible for dozens of American deaths, Libya's Gaddafi had his own goon squad that brought down the PanAm airliner over Lockerbie, among other projects, and Iran had Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad, which were responsible for the Marine barracks bombing that killed over 200 Marines in a single day. (The one thing these organizations had in common was that the state sponsors could plausibly deny that they were involved). With the thousands of deaths from 9/11, state-sponsored terrorism crossed a threshold, indicating that the next attack could involve the destruction of an entire American city. This is why the US reacted so vigorously.
Iraq was attacked because it had a variety of desirable attributes - (1) Saddam was essentially friendless in the region, (2) unlike Saudi Arabia, Iraq had few holy places of universal interest to Sunni Muslims, (3) large ethnic (Kurds - 20%) and religious groups (Shiites - 60%, Christians - 5%) were being kept down by a small minority that monopolized the important positions, (4) Iraq offered the military easy access to most of the important countries in the region, providing the US with the means to intimidate any country even thinking of sponsoring anti-American terrorists.
A key aspect of the US response has been its insistence that it will not wait for the evidence to come in before attacking an Arab country. If the US believes a Muslim country was responsible for a terror attack, that Muslim country will face American retribution, no matter how well it has covered its tracks. The fact that there is only circumstantial evidence linking Iraq to 9/11 actually enhances deterrence with respect to Muslim countries (as well as countries such as China, which has contemplated alliances with these terror groups to advance Chinese policy goals)**. The US will not wait until evidence is available before striking at its enemies.*** This will compel Muslim and other enemy governments to be proactive in countering potential attacks against the US even before they occur, lest they become implicated and targeted.
Is this unfair to them, in the sense that they might be wrongly accused? Sure. If they were in the US's place, would they do the same? Absolutely, and probably worse, given what they do to their own people on a routine basis. This is the price the US has to pay for the failure of deterrence, for the withdrawals from Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia, each of which is routinely quoted as a reason that Americans can be attacked with impunity because it is felt to be too weak, cowardly or legalistic to mount a major military response.
* This problem is not unique to the US. Pakistan has deployed terrorists against India. Malaysia has supported Muslim separatists in Thailand and the Philippines. Indonesia has supported home-grown Islamic terrorists against Christians in the empire the Dutch built for them before leaving.
** Read Unrestricted Warfare for an indication of Chinese views on the utility of terrorist attacks as a tool of foreign policy.
*** In most terrorist attacks, like well-planned intelligence operations, this evidence connecting all the dots will never become available.
#39
Zheng Fei, the reasons for invading Iraq which you have stated is what I was driving at and I agree with them, well, I would disagree with a couple of points but the general thrust is definitely there. I have always viewed the geographic location of Iraq as a main driver in re-establishig a new balance of power in the middle east. My concern was (and still is) the manipulation, either deliberate or not, of the whole issue in the public domain. This may be due to belief that majority of the public would simply not understand the intricacies of the situation, however personally, I do find it insulting (and somehow I think that I might be the only one on this forum) the way the US administration (and the same applies to the Australian gov over here) went about in building internal support for the action. I'm not proposing an alternative however. In many instances it was obviously clear (at least to me) that misleading/deceptive and in some cases clear lying was used to strengthen the case for the removal of SH (not in all instances). This has continued since the occupation. I'm not arguing that SH should not have been removed and never have been, but I'm not prepared to swallow everything that is presented to me without questioning it. I have been reading this forum for some time and regard this blog to be one of the better ones around. I'm a sucker for information and quite happily read anything from right wing to left wing stuff but always am prepared to question everything, find more information and then make up my own mind (always being receptive for alterantive views). Having said that I do find some things as being quite laughable on both sides. What scares me is some people's belief that they are unquestionably right. My main aim in posting comments (and I admit that I'm not always correct) is to at least confront people with a different view on issues. Some people obviously take offence, I can live with that, by having their beliefs questioned.
The top U.N. diplomat said Monday he could not support bringing captured Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein before a tribunal that might sentence him to death. ââThe U.N. does not support death penalty. In all the courts we have set up (U.N. officials) have not included death penalty,ââ Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in a brief encounter with reporters at the United Nations.
The victims of those people brought before UN courts, y'see, are magically brought back to life. There's no reason, no justification, for putting to death the people who tortured and killed them without mercy...
ââAnd so as secretary-general and the U.N. as an organization are not going to turn around and support a death penalty,ââ Annan said.
How about if you shut up and get out of the way, then?
Last week, Iraqâs Governing Council adopted a measure setting up a special war crimes tribunal. Council members have said since Saddamâs capture Saturday that he would be tried before the special tribunal and could face the death penalty.
Even if he's convicted, which isn't guaranteed, he'll still be alive. The pretty girl in the white dress in Sarajevo won't be. Nor will her dog...
In Africa, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, a United Nations court based in Tanzania, is trying dozens of people for the 1994 genocide that killed 500,000 people. Local courts are trying other suspects in Rwanda.
In Rwanda, there were instances of victims bribing their killers to dispatch them with a bullet, rather than hacking them to death with machetes. But those killers don't deserve to die, because... ummm... ummm...
The new International Criminal Court is the worldâs first permanent war crimes tribunal. The United States opposes it, fearing that Americans will be singled out for frivolous cases. U.S. officials have signed deals with more than 30 countries to prevent Americans from being extradited to the court in The Hague. Sorry but due to the âunilateralâ nature of this venture and since the UN opted out of the contract I am going to ask you to: âshut the Hell up.â Maybe after Sammy spills the beans on some of the Security Council you might want to do a âreorgâ or perhaps look for a new address. The rules are simply this: Those that play, get to make up the rules! You Sir have decided NOT to play.
Iran is preparing a criminal complaint to present at any international court that may try former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein over the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war.
Boy, he's in trouble now!
Government spokesman Abdullah Ramazanzadeh said on Monday that the foreign ministry had already taken some steps on the matter. "I hope we can defend Iranians' rightful demands at a proper place," he told a news conference.
Get in line with the rest, Bub...
About 300,000 Iranians were killed in the eight year war, including thousands who succumbed to chemical weapons attacks used by the Iraqi army.
That's approximately the same number of Iraqis currently residing in mass graves...
He said an international court "should determine who equipped
this dictator to disrupt our region and impose three big crises on our region," referring to Saddam's invasion of Iran, Kuwait and then the US invasion of Iraq itself. Saddam is known to have had the support of the United States, Britain, France, several other European countries as well as a number of key Arab states - including Saudi Arabia and Egypt - when he attacked Iran.
Oh, is that it? If memory serves correctly, start with the Soviet Union, which was Iraq's biggest weapons supplier.
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 15:56 ||
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#1
After the Iraqis kill him, he's ours. Then we'll kill him and pass him on to you. Then you can kill him, too, and pass him on to whoever wants him next. And then... well, you get the picture.
(2003-12-15) -- Democrat presidential candidate Howard Dean today said the capture of former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein "lacks legitimacy because it was a unilateral effort by American forces."
"Itâs great that Saddam Hussein was caught, but we did it all wrong and he should be released immediately," said Mr. Dean, "This will allow him to be recaptured later by a true multilateral coalition led by the United Nations."
The former Vermont governor noted that U.S. forces acted pre-emptively to surround the area where Mr. Hussein had hidden, and declined the former Iraqi leaderâs offer to negotiate.
"Itâs just another example of cowboy diplomacy," he said. "The Bush administrationâs ignorance in foreign policy and military matters is stunning. Did they read Mr. Hussein his Miranda rights? Did he get his phone call? Was there even a search warrant? We in the global community demand the justice that only the United Nations can legitimately deliver."
#1
Who is like unto Scrappleface? Hilarious, but almost close enough to the way the deluded Left feels about it that's I could almost cry...
Ho Ho Dean would never get Saddam to the ICC in Brussels:
the vengeance-hungry (and rightly so) Iraqi people would tear them both limb from limb at being deprived of their day of justice.
On the other hand, that might be worth it...
Hmmm. Maybe I should vote for Dean...NAH. Not going to happen!
Posted by: Fred ||
12/15/2003 17:22 Comments ||
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#3
Fred, been there, done that before!
I might, although I'd have to take barf bags--I loathe Dean.
Maybe I'll vote for Lieberman or Gephardt.
While most of us Bushies would like for the President to run against Dean because he's such a loon and Bush will beat him (or any other Dim, really) like a red-headed stepchild, Dean's being the nominee is still too close to the White House for me!
I've made minor changes to the headlines portion of the page.
I added the permalink to the left of the headline; this will take you to the article for linking.
I changed the anchor for the headline text to take you directly there on the page, rather than calling the page all over again. This is quicker and easier on bandwidth, but using the address in a link to the article will only be good for a single day. If you're linking from your page, use the permalink approach!
I also changed the typeface for the headlines. I don't know if I like it or not...
Posted by: Fred Pruitt ||
12/15/2003 15:11 ||
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#1
Thanx Fred, I was fond of the old typeface for the headlines. But the new anchor/permalink dealio looks sharp and works really well!
#4
Thanks Fred. I like the fact that it no longer reloads the entire page when you click on a item in the headline (thats gets slow if there are a lot of long articles).
#8
Nice... technical stuff.. but the font!The Font! The Font! In the name of Guttenburg... lighten up on the typeface's color. I'll send money. I swear.
During the 1970s and 1980s, a number of Third World countries used the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) to press for a "new world information order." This grand-sounding project claimed that governments around the world needed to be more involved in "managing" information flows to better serve the "public interest." Part of this new order was the idea of forcing journalists to obtain government licensing in order to report the news. American journalists were quick to point out the dangers this system posed to media independence â if a reporter uncovers news a government doesnât like, and exposes it, she could lose her license. Bob and Hugo have this one down pat.
Despite continuous criticism from the Reagan administration for supporting this obvious bid to impose censorship, UNESCO persisted in supporting this drive for a "new order." In disgust, President Reagan pulled the U.S. out of UNESCO in 1984. (The U.S. rejoined just this year.)
In 1995, delegates attending a UNESCO-convened meeting on "Women and the Media" held in Toronto, Canada called for various forms of government control on the media. These included taking legislative action to combat the "predominantly male culture of the mainstream media" by passing laws mandating "gender-sensitive" hiring practices for media outlets. (This heavy-handed regulatory approach echoed again that year during a UN conference on womenâs issues in Beijing].) This attitude does not suggest a very high appreciation on the UNâs part regarding the value of ensuring that media outlets are free from clumsy government interference. This one doesnât scare me, but Iâm sure it would scare the Mullahs.
It's a camel's nose. The definition of a "media outlet" can be stretched every which way, to include blogs. And if there's a requirement to have a proportion of women, there's every precedent for a subsequent requirement to have, say, a proportion of South Asians, or Blacks, or Samoans. And after that to make sure there's a "representative" proportion of homosexuals. And a "representative" proportion of Protestants to Catholics to Muslims. And a "representative" slice of the political spectrum — how many commies and how many fascists have you hired lately? So it scares me.
I might also point out that except for the terriblevision and radio, you can't tell a person's gender or color or sexual preference or height or weight by what he/she/it writes. F'rinstance, at least two of the people who comment regularly here are women, but I only know that from their e-mails to me, and was surprised to learn it in both cases.
The UNâs readiness to sympathize with supporters of censorship made an appearance last year. Its 2002 Human Development Report praised South Africaâs Human Rights Commission (a government-funded body) for persecuting journalists in 2000 who dared to write investigative reports of high-level corruption. The Commission slapped the journalists with trumped-up charges of "subliminal racism."
"Subliminal" = too faint to be seen by any but a trained observer...
The UN, bizarrely, said that this persecution helped to build "respect for human rightsâ¢." Usually the main stream media censors itself against criticizing African governements.
Now, ICANN is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. It could use some reform. But ICANN should not be scrapped simply to appease a few critics, without those critics explaining what they would substitute in its place.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 2:08:28 PM ||
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This is probably a bigger story than saddam. This is basically a socialist bid to take over information in the next century, imposing soviet-style censorship on the 'news'. We should fight this tooth and nail, and if it ever does come to pass we should cut-off and keep the 'internet' on our own. It would be another cold war, but eventually the mutts would be torn down. They always are.
Edited for brevit. Saddam Hussein has been compliant since he was captured Dec. 13, but so far is not cooperating, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told Lesley Stahl on the CBS News program "60 Minutes" Dec. 14. "He has not been cooperative in terms of talking, or anything like that," Rumsfeld said. "He clearly was compliant or resigned, in effect, as he was being examined and as he was being transferred from the hole to the transport that took him away, but I think ⊠itâs a bit early to try and characterize his demeanor beyond that."
The secretary said that to his knowledge, reports that Iran was involved in Saddamâs capture are untrue. "The reason he was finally captured was because some wonderful young men and women in uniform have been over there for seven or eight months, and they have been doing a wonderful job for our country and for the Iraqi people in helping to set that country on a path," he said. "And they have developed an ability to deal with a high-value target like Saddam Hussein (and) to do it in a time-sensitive way," he continued. "And when the intelligence was gathered and analyzed (and) brought together over a period of some hours and days, they were able to then move very rapidly and very skillfully and very professionally and capture that individual."
Saddam had "very inflated views of himself and his role in the world" when he was in power, the secretary said. "And to have him go out the way he is going out â with a whimper â it seems to me deflates those that would have wanted to support that approach to the world." The secretary said that although the man soldiers found hiding in the hole near Tikrit looked like Saddam Hussein and had a bullet hole in his leg and tattoos that Saddam was known to have, firm conclusions werenât made at first, and he warned President Bush when informing him of the capture that early reports often are incorrect. "I was more interested in the fact that we found a sizeable amount of money," Rumsfeld said, "because we know that Saddam Hussein had doubles, and we know that they used plastic surgery, so they could very easily have put the tattoos and the bullet hole when they were doing the facial surgery." He said the large amount of money found at the scene â some $750,000 in U.S. $100 bills â and positive identification by some of Saddamâs former cabinet members in custody made it clear the captured man was, indeed, the former Iraqi dictator.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 12:54:11 PM ||
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QUESTION: You say this is not personal, but youâve also pointed out this was a man [Hussein] who tried to murder your father. What is your greeting today? BUSH: "Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. And I find it very interesting that when the heat got on you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it. And our brave troops, combined with good intelligence, found you. And youâll be brought to justice, something you did not afford the people you brutalized in your own country." And what was the first part of the question?
QUESTION: I know you scoffed at the idea of a negotiation. (CROSSTALK) BUSH: Oh, yes, yes. How do you know I scoffed at it? Laughing does not mean scoffing. (LAUGHTER)...
BUSH: Yes, well, people can read whatever they want to read into it. My job is to keep America secure. Thatâs my job. Iâve got a solemn duty to do everything I can to protect the American people. I will never forget the lessons of September the 11th, 2001. Terrorists attacked us. They killed thousands of our fellow citizens. And it could happen again. And therefore I will deal with threats, threats that are emerging and real.
We gave Saddam Hussein plenty of time to heed the demands of the world and he chose defiance. He did. He said, "Forget it. I donât care what the United Nations has said over a decade. I donât care about all the resolutions passed." He chose defiance; we acted.
And I acted because, I repeat, I have a duty to protect this country and I will continue to protect the country so long as Iâm the president of the United States.
Posted by: Dar ||
12/15/2003 12:43:42 PM ||
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Here, Here! Of course the best part was when he reminded that twit David Gregory not to steal the silver at the White House Press Christmas Party.
Posted by: Jack is Back! ||
12/15/2003 14:56 Comments ||
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#2
Agreed, Jack--what a clymer that Gregory is...If only David Bloom hadn't died in Iraq (RIP), he would've been there instead of that asshat.
President Bush is doing an outstanding job of protecting us from terrorism: if we are to believe the intel we have, Saddam was behind both WTC bombings ('93 and 9/11), very likely was behind OKC as well as the anthrax attacks post 9/11, as well as the causus belli for 2 wars.
He was just gonna keep trying to kill us until he was stopped.
So we stopped him. USA! Viva Bush!
Lileks isnât posting much till January, the link wonât hold after today:
They got him! Or so they suggested, back in March. No one said it explicitly, but for a day we hoped. The troops were massed and poised; intel came in, off when the rockets. I remember watching video of flames licking the sky that night - best of all possible worlds, it seemed. The war hadnât even begun, and maybe the butcher was a pink smear on a shattered hunk of concrete. Not the case, as it turned out. Then came another decapitation attempt before the troops took Baghdad, and I thought the same thing: if only. "Coalition forces have discovered a liver on a rebar, and are making DNA tests as we speak!" But he lived. He fled. He literally went to ground. Looking at the odorous burrow where he was finally found, you realize that the last words Saddam might have heard were âfire in the hole!â - but somehow those atavistic cowboy soldiers swallowed their instincts and took him alive.
Good.
Alive is better.
Right now the TV is playing a hastily assembled documentary of Saddamâs rise to power â itâs mostly clips of the butcher in tailored suits, smiling, at ease, in power. The suits always seem to blind certain people. They see the suits, they assume the best. They want to sign treaties, make contracts, lend money. Yes, yes, he is a hard man, but it is a hard part of the world, no? One must deal with someone. Saddam was said to have studied Stalin, and in one respect he trumped his idol. Stalinâs smile never reached his eyes. He was always looking around to see who on his team was smiling more than he was, or wasnât smiling enough. But sometimes Saddam actually had a genuine smile. And why not? He had his people under his heel, and a good portion of the West in his pocket. The American presidents, they came and went. Granted, so did their bombs. But no American president knew what it was like to grow up poor in Tikrit. No American president had ever shot a man â soft hands, they had. They had big sticks, but big sticks taxed the arms of weak men, and they always laid them down eventually.
Hence the grin; hence the big wide open toothy grin. Top of the world, ma. Top of the world.
Many have noted that the sight of Saddam looking like Nick Nolteâs mugshot will have a harsh effect on our old seething friend, the Arab Street. They will see him looking like a piss-soaked bum with matted hair and bags under his eyes that look like Kathy Batesâ bosom, and theyâll see the Proud Example brought low, the man who had stood up to America humbled and unmanned. (That always makes me wonder how many fellow Arabs a man can kill before that crime exceeds the virtue of Standing Up to America. Half a million? One? Two?) What struck me was his expression when the doctor poked around in his maw for a suicide pill â he had the standard reflex familiar to anyone whoâs been in a dentistâs chair. The intimacy of the act makes you look away. You look up; you endure; you disengage until itâs over. Saddam humiliated himself. A big bald Yank stuck a stick in his mouth and he couldnât even look him in the eye.
This was their hero? His army evaporated. His statues came down like cheap plastic bowling trophies. He ran away. He hid in a hole. Thereâs your man, O brave foes of American imperialism. Itâs Ozymandias in reverse, really â in Shelleyâs poem, the stumps of the great statue punctuate the vast and trackless desert, and when we are asked to look upon Ozymandiasâ works and despair, itâs a comment on the smothering hand of time. Nothing remains. But now the entire world can look upon Saddamâs works, and despair for different reasons. We see what he did. We see everything that remains; we see what he didnât do. Itâs possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesnât invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.) He failed to give his people anything but the geegaws and baubles stolen from successful cultures. Streetlamps and telephones: so what? It was the sort of government that would institute rural electrification only to reward friendly tribes and power the testitcle-clamps in the torture cells.
Saddamâs failure isnât his alone. The entire political construct he represents is a miserable man too tired to resist when itâs finally pushed against a wall. One hopes the point is made: when the US Army turns your way, your barber and your tailor are no help at all. When youâre a ragged hairy thug dragged from a bolt-hole whoâs having his back teeth interrogated by a grim buff Murcan soljur who would really prefer to be home for Christmas, thereâs a chance Paris and Berlin wonât take your calls.
Iâve read all the nutball far-left sites worrying about the worrisome worries â does this help Dub? Was it all faked? Surely America will see that the man paraded before the cameras was a soy-based simulacrum cooked up in the Halliburton labs? Itâs amusing to troll the fevered swamps, but nothing they say matters in the end. The history texts will note that Baghdad fell on this date, Saddam was captured on that date, and the events between the two events will fill up a paragraph at best. Cruel but true. This was a big event, but there are bigger events to come.
We live in an age where weâre always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And drop it does. And drop again it will.
If this war has a mascot, itâs the millipede.
Damm, but the man can write.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 11:35:14 AM ||
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In Their Own Words: The Democratic Candidates CAROL MOSELEY BRAUNThe capture of Saddam Hussein is good news for the people of Iraq and the world. But it does not change the fact that our troops remain in harmâs way, and we are no closer to bringing them home. WESLEY K. CLARK I could not be prouder of the men and women of the U.S. armed forces for capturing this horrible despot. This is a testament to their courage and determination. Iâd also like to congratulate Lieutenant General Sanchez and the intelligence community for the crucial role they played. Weâve been due good news from Iraq, and the world is a safer and better place now that he is in custody. HOWARD DEAN This is a great day of pride in the American military, a great day for the Iraqis, a great day for the American people and, frankly, a great day for the administration. This is a day to celebrate the fact that Saddamâs been caught. Weâll have to wait to see what happens to the campaign later. JOHN EDWARDS Our military leaders have accomplished a great success. I hope President Bush will use this opportunity to chart a course in Iraq that will bring in our allies in a meaningful way to achieve a democratic and peaceful Iraq. RICHARD A. GEPHARDT Itâs a great day for our troops, for this administration, for the people of Iraq. My hope is that this will decrease the violence our troops will have to face. JOHN KERRY If we had done this with a sufficient number of troops, if we had done this in a globalized way, if we had brought more people to the table, we might have caught Saddam Hussein sooner. We might have had less loss of life. We would be in a stronger position today with respect to what weâre doing. DENNIS J. KUCINICH With the capture of Saddam Hussein, the administrationâs stated goal of removing him from power has been accomplished. The United States must seize this moment and end the occupation of Iraq. JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN On the question that weâre celebrating today, Howard Dean throughout this campaign has said he wasnât sure that Saddam really represented a threat to us. At one point he said, "I suppose the Iraqis are better off with Saddam Hussein gone." I would say this, and this is a choice the voters have to make in the primaries. If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam Hussein would be in power today, not in prison. AL SHARPTON Now that they have achieved the capture of Hussein, they should appeal to the U.N. to come in with a multilateral redevelopment plan. This is all the more reason this war should come to an immediate end. And these people want to lead our country? They act like they arenât even Americans. Try the bastard (here or there) and then have a PUBLIC hanging.
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) ||
12/15/2003 11:15:25 AM ||
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Scrappleface:
Dean Demands Saddam's Release, Recapture by U.N.
(2003-12-15) -- Democrat presidential candidate Howard Dean today said the capture of former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein "lacks legitimacy because it was a unilateral effort by American forces."
"It's great that Saddam Hussein was caught, but we did it all wrong and he should be released immediately," said Mr. Dean, "This will allow him to be recaptured later by a true multilateral coalition led by the United Nations."
The former Vermont governor noted that U.S. forces acted pre-emptively to surround the area where Mr. Hussein had hidden, and declined the former Iraqi leader's offer to negotiate.
"It's just another example of cowboy diplomacy," he said. "The Bush administration's ignorance in foreign policy and military matters is stunning. Did they read Mr. Hussein his Miranda rights? Did he get his phone call? Was there even a search warrant? We in the global community demand the justice that only the United Nations can legitimately deliver."
Posted by: Frank G ||
12/15/2003 11:53 Comments ||
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Al Sharpton on this listing of Democratic candidates responses:
AS - "I understand that Carol is listed first because of the "ladies first" rule, but I resent the fact that the only Black man on the list has to follow the seven white guys."
Me - "Uh, the candidates are listed alphabetically, Rev. Sharpton."
AS - "That just proves my point! The alphabet was invented by the Greeks -- who were white."
Posted by: Tibor ||
12/15/2003 12:05 Comments ||
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John Kerry emphasized on Fox News Sunday that now that Hussein was captured, the time was right to internationalize the U.S. mission there. (Please don't let British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, or Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi know that a sitting U.S. senator, not known to be on medication, is publicly complaining that the mission isn't "internationalized" â the diplomatic repercussions of an American leader ignoring their contributions and sacrifices could be severe.)
The capture of Saddam Hussein
The dramatic news of Saddam Husseinâs capture provides a faint glimmer of hope that peace and security may someday be possible in a country that has seen little of either. After decades of oppression, war, and deprivation, the long-suffering people of Iraq will finally see their brutal dictator brought to justice. For their sake, and for the sake of American servicepeople in Iraq, we hope that Saddamâs capture will hasten the end of hostilities in that country. While the chance of a democratic government in Iraq still seems remote, perhaps this news will help make it possible.
We opposed the invasion of Iraq, which did nothing to improve the security of the American people, and caused incalculable damage to our reputation abroad. The capture of Saddam does not make an unwise war wise, it does not make an illegal war legal, and it does not make an utter failure of American foreign policy into a success. The current Administration has botched nearly everything itâs touched these last three years. Saddamâs capture provides them with a fresh opportunity to get our foreign policy back on track. Letâs hope they donât botch this too.
âThe Administrators of DU If nothing else these people are consistent. They still opposed the Invasion of Iraq but hope that they will have Peace, security, and an end to suffering. Thatâs nice they âhopedâ that maybe Saddam would all of a sudden stop funding terrorism and maybe treat his people with dignity? Or maybe his sonâs would have brought about a just and free Iraq? Pure delusional thinking if they think that change will come about simply by âhopingâ for it to happen. I hope that I will win the lottery and not have to work (I am still working until that comes about). I like the last two nuggets that on the âfailedâ policy and âillegalâ war. If I were the RNC I would be plagiarizing the DU site for all my commercials this election season. My catch phrase at the end would go like this: âIraq and the world now HAVE hope do to the efforts of President Bush and his war on terror.â
Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) ||
12/15/2003 10:41:42 AM ||
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I liked Drudge's headline: Dean digs in. Hey...when you are in a hole...
And, it was a rb'er yesterday who asked the key question which they must now answered: If the Iraq war/occupation was/is illegal, then isn't Sadaam still the leader of Iraq?
Posted by: B ||
12/15/2003 11:04 Comments ||
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At least two Iranian civilians were killed and 13 wounded when anti-aircraft manoeuvres went wrong near a nuclear power plant being built in southern Iran. Officials said the incident occurred when anti-aircraft cannon shells fired into the air during a drill failed to explode in the air as planned. Instead, the shells plunged back to earth, exploding on impact with a minibus and a residential area. "Hey, whoâs getting married?"
The incident occurred in Bushehr, during a drill at a military airbase situated adjacent to the site where the Iranâs first nuclear power station is currently under construction. Worried about a airstrike, are they?
Asghar Zareii, an official in the public relations office of Bushehrâs governor-general told a foreign news agency on Monday two people were killed and 13 were injured. "But there are reports that the number of dead could be as high as seven," Zareii said. Zareii said one of the dead was decapitated.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:57:28 AM ||
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I thought AAA ordnance had fuses that are supposed to prevent this kind of thing.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 10:33 Comments ||
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I thought AAA ordnance had fuses that are supposed to prevent this kind of thing.
Keep in mind who the supplier is, comrade.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam ||
12/15/2003 10:36 Comments ||
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I have never heard of an ordanance exercise where the aera down range wasn't secured as a precaution.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 11:59 Comments ||
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Who says is was an excercise? Can you say "recon flight"?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 12:32 Comments ||
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I doubt we'll use manned aircraft for the initial strike, anyway. Maybe the Israelis would, but even that's doubtful - they have a capable stand-off weapon, even though I don't think it's been tested yet.
Gonna be real funny when there's this large explosion or six at the reactor containment building, THEN the AAA starts firing!
Posted by: Old Patriot ||
12/15/2003 13:05 Comments ||
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Hmmm...something missing here. I don't see the condemnation of the US for indifference to civilian casualties. There must be some way to blame it on...
"The Arab governments are in deep shit trouble now," says Hisham Kassem, the chairman of the Egyptian Organization of Human Rights in Cairo. "None of them want to see the stabilization of a democratic Iraq. Then they will have to ask the question, who is No. 2? While Saddam Hussein is a psychopath, when it comes to governance every other regime in the region runs the same kind of dictatorship." tick tick tick tick
Posted by: Rawsnacks ||
12/15/2003 9:56:13 AM ||
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Then they will have to ask the question, who is No. 2?
Secretary of State Colin Powell was undergoing surgery for prostate cancer Monday morning, the State Department announced. Powell, 66, was expected to remain at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington for several days after the surgery, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said in a written statement. "He will be on a reduced schedule while he recovers from the operation, " Boucher said. Get well soon. Another reason to have Baker doing the heavy lifting on the negotiating scene
Posted by: rkb ||
12/15/2003 9:53:54 AM ||
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Was just thinking we hadn't heard much from ol' Colin lately. Now we know why.
#3
Lair posted this at Amish Tech Support...think about it; it makes a lot of sense: What? No Roadmap To Being Cancer-Free? No Genital Accords coming from the cancer-appeasing members of his family, worked out in secret with the insurance company without Colin's approval and then announced publicly? No parlay and negotiations between Colin and the cancerous tumors in his "disputed genital area?" (It's the holiest site of all of orgasm, you know) No continuous six-month waivers for acting upon the deadly tissue, re-upping the lease that the rapidly-spreading malignancy uses to gain a foothold upon the rest of Colin Powell's body? No blaming his own body's white blood cells and T-cells for fighting the cancerous insurgency while killing off the occasional "normal" cell? It's funny how when it comes life and death for Colin the surgeons move quickly in to extract the malady.
Take with usual grain of salt, but not beyond belief
Russia has sold Iran advanced 300-A air defense missile system â against Washingtonâs objections - to defend its controversial Bushehr nuclear reactor. This was discovered Sunday when two missiles were fired accidentally during installation, killing at least two and injuring 20 aboard a minibus and causing heavy damage in town. Casualties and damage believed more extensive than admitted by Tehran.
Posted by: rkb ||
12/15/2003 9:47:59 AM ||
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Given the track record of Soviet Russian equipment, why do people keep buying it?
Posted by: Robert Crawford ||
12/15/2003 10:14 Comments ||
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killing at least two and injuring 20 aboard a minibus
#4
RC - the price is right and it makes them feel like they're accomplishing something. The only realistic alternative, being friendly with America, is unacceptable to the Iranian leadership.
At least 25 gunmen crossed from Chechnya into the neighboring Russian region of Dagestan on Monday, killing at least three border guards and seizing hostages in a remote mountain village, officials said. The gunmen attacked a border guard unit on the internal frontier between Chechnya and Dagestan, killing at least three servicemen and wounding 10 others before entering the Tsunti district village of Shauri, said Roman Shchekochikhin, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry branch in southern Russia. Shchekochikhin said the attackers seized 30-40 hostages at a school, but Basyr Magomedov, head of the Tsunti district administration, said on state-run Rossiya television that the attackers were holding an unspecified number of hostages in a 50-bed hospital, while a Dagestani emergency official said the attackers had left Shauri, taking three hostages with them. Confusion reigns, film at 11.
They were headed back toward Chechnya, said Yusup Koichukayev, a duty officer with the Ministry of Emergency Situations in Dagestan. The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a spokesman for the Russian military in Chechnya, Vasily Panchenkov, as saying the attackers took three hostages in Shauri, but he did not say they had left the village. According to Muslim Tsupmilov, a spokesman for the Federal Security Serviceâs border guards agency in Dagestan, nine servicemen were killed in fighting with the gunmen, who officials said crossed the border hours before dawn. Interior Ministry and border troops were headed to the area, but it is remote and hard to reach, Shchekochikhin said. And choppers tend to get shot down.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:17:50 AM ||
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China has issued its first "terrorist" wanted list, blaming four Muslim separatist groups and 11 individuals for a string of bombings and assassinations and calling for international assistance to track them down. The groups are accused of trying to create an independent Islamic state called "East Turkestan" in the northwest Xinjiang region, which is populated by Turkic-speaking Uighur Muslims. "East Turkestan forces inside and outside China have long plotted and executed a series of bombings, assassinations, arsons, poisoning attacks and other activities in Xinjiang and elsewhere in China," said Zhao Yongshen, an official with the Ministry of Public Security. Weâve heard about the occasional "boom".
But Uighur and human rights activists abroad have rejected the "terrorist" tag and accuse Beijing of waging a campaign of politically motivated repression against ethnic and religious minority groups. "China wants to have the Uighur movement silenced by any means," said Enver Can, president of a Munich-based group called the East Turkestan National Congress. True
According to Beijing, the named groups carried out their attacks "to achieve their goal of undermining national unity". China appealed to other governments to ban the groups, prohibit them from receiving support or asylum and freeze their accounts; and to prosecute and investigate the wanted individuals and hand them over to China. But Enver Can denounced the issuing of the list and the appeal for foreign support as a "misuse" of the global war on terror. He had seen nothing that could be connected with terrorism in his dealings with two of the four groups on the list and he doubted if the other two actually existed at all, he told BBC News Online. The World Uighur Youth Congress and the East Turkestan Information Centre were, like his own group, simply NGOs based in Germany whose main function was to provide information, he said. Or act as a political front, sometimes itâs hard to tell the difference.
The two other groups on Chinaâs list are the Eastern Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) and the Eastern Turkestan Liberation Organization (ETLO). Any group that has "Islamic" in itâs title is suspect to me.
Chinese authorities have blamed ETIM for many of the 200 or more attacks reported in Xinjiang since 1990 and have banned the group for more than a decade. Beijing accuses ETIM of having links to the Taleban in neighbouring Afghanistan and Osama bin Ladenâs al-Qaeda network, but has produced no supporting evidence. Iâm sure they do, have links, that is.
After Chinese lobbying, the group was also banned last year by the US and the United Nations, despite criticism from diplomats who described it as defunct. The UN?
We disagree with the Chinese on lots of issues, and occasionally we make faces at each other. But the Xinjiang/East Turkestan festivities are of a piece with the rest of the attempts to reintroduce the turban to Central Asia. Enver Can to me is no different from Ibrahim Hooper, and as far as I'm concerned, in Central Asia we and the Chinese are best buddies. We can argue over Taiwan later.
Posted by: Steve ||
12/15/2003 9:00:13 AM ||
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Some of these are legitimate nationalist resistance movements we should support, not help quash.
#3
Zhang Fei, do all these bombings actually happen and if so are the targets civilian? Remember several years ago when some Iraqis attempted to assasinate Uday. I wouldn't call Udayicide an act of terrorism.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 11:36 Comments ||
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Zhang Fei, do all these bombings actually happen and if so are the targets civilian?
The Uighurs are doing IRA-style bombings with few civilian casualties. They're also attacking security personnel (reputedly 1 million Chinese troops of all kinds in East Turkistan). It looks like they're trying to send a message to the Chinese government.
The Chinese government generally retaliates by arresting and executing male family members. College students are not allowed to practise the faith on pain of expulsion. An Uighur businesswoman was sentenced to 10 years in prison for advocating Uighur autonomy.
#5
I guess I would call them partisans. I know there is uranium that the Chinese want in Tibet. There must be something they want in Turkistan. 1M troops is quite and occupation force.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 19:43 Comments ||
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There must be something they want in Turkistan. 1M troops is quite and occupation force.
Natural gas and oil. East Turkistan is also where the Chinese test their NBC (or WMD) arsenal. 1 million troops is nothing - excluding the land annexed to other provinces, East Turkistan is almost 4 times the size of Iraq. East Turkistan's population is about 11 million, many of whom are unemployed because of systematic Chinese discrimination, and the Chinese policy of moving in Chinese settlers at the expense of the locals (just as in Tibet). The several millenia-old Chinese expedient of setting up penal colonies in newly-conquered lands has also been used to change the demographics of this colony.
I canât believe this [in reference to the capture of Saddam]. Iâm crying here. I feel that we now donât have a chance in this election.
Posted by Carrie B at December 14, 2003 10:03 AM
There were many people who posted subsequent to this to tried to console Carrie B. Governor Dean seems now to represent the psychotic wing of the Democratic Party.
Best of the Web ran yesterday â special edition for a special occasion, I guess. I was particularly struck by this:
Unlike the Democratic presidential candidates, some grass-roots Dems are unable to contain their gloom over the wonderful news. Here's a post by someone called ikojo at DemocraticUnderground.com (quoted verbatim):
I had a horrible feeling in my stomach this morning when I saw that Hussein had been capatured.
This is a BIG boost for * [i.e., Bush]. This will be used in campaign literature. It will make Dems and others who opposed the war look bad as well. I don't regret opposing shrub's war of aggression on Iraq but it sure will be hard for the candidates now, unless they press the Where's Osama issue but since a majority of Americans already believe that Hussein was behind 9/11/01 it hardly matters.
All of a sudden I am not confident he will lose in 2004.
Please boost my confidence in shrub's defeat in November 2004.
Look what he has going for him right now:
Dow over 10,000
Hussein captured
The pug CONvention is going to be in NYC around the time of the 9/11 anniversary
A complacent and compliant right-wing corporate controlled media all too willing to act as an arm of the pentagon and white house press room.
His administration did what his daddy did not, supposedly captured Hussein.
... Needing encouragement that * can be defeated. Now the stuff about Halliburton overcharging the government will be placed on the back burner as the corporate media celebrates the capture of Hussein.
Not feeling hopeful right now. I have a lot of fear of what he could do if given a second term.
Now, what strikes me about this sentiment is the blatantly exclusive focus on politix as usual, rather than on national interest. In theory, with me being an independent-minded type of fellow, the Dems would want me to change my mind about supporting Bush by showing that they're ever so much more competent to look out for the national intest. I can remember when the Dems were the party with fresh ideas, even though they didn't pan out, so I can foresee a day when the Publicans become stale and repetitive. But ikojo isn't out to change my mind â he's fully engrossed in the mechanics of it all. Equally, his mind isn't about to be changed; he's a True Believerâ¢. The Dow's over 10,000, Sammy's caught, the people like him, he's shown himself to trustworthy, loyal, brave, compassionate, kind to puppies and kittens â but ikojo will never be won over. He will never be able to bring himself to say "Bush has been a good president," not even to follow the statement with "but we could do even better."
Posted by: mhw ||
12/15/2003 8:12:16 AM ||
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If Nader runs, Dean will be hurt also.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 8:37 Comments ||
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This is my favorite comment on the capture of Saddam..."Samer Saado, an employee at a Damascus flower shop, said he didn't care about Saddam but felt overwhelming sadness for Iraq and the entire Arab world. "What the Americans are doing in Iraq and everywhere else is humiliating. There's nothing to say we're not next in line," he said."
Hey Samer...tell all your anti-American, Arab friends to keep that in mind...would ya?
#5
hey, TGA..just want to say that I was impressed with the way Schroeder reacted to the news. He was one of the few leaders (who didn't support the war effort) who had the courage to acknowledge a job well done. Good for him.
#8
Tech Central Station has a great article on how the socialist Baath regime is a bad match for a naturally entreprenurial culture like the Syrian culture. It's called Out With the Ba'ath Water. I think the article's insight would also match the Mexican culture. In an economy dominated by government owned business, the ambitious will emigrate - legally or illegally - or smuggle drugs.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 11:52 Comments ||
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Mr Joe
The moonbat German left has been collecting money with the explicit purpose of it being used for killing American soldiers in Iraq. And Mr Schroeder has been elected thanks to courting those people. The difference between Chirac and Schroeder is that Chirac is far less capable at backstabbing while hiding his hand.
#10
My girlfriend went catatonic yesterday after hearing the news. In the interest of domestic tranquility I didn't leap off the couch to ululate. "Do you think he knows where bin Laden is?" she asked. Not sure what to make of it, I just said "Pro'lly not." After all, how does one know specifically which cave wall Binny's smeered over...
Perhaps I'll send her the link to the memo on M. Atta and Abu Nidal in Iraq before 9/11/01...
#12
It's only a matter of time before these leftist scum can justify to themselves some active support to al qaeda, IJ, hizbollah, etc.,. And I'm not talking about the nuts from EFL, I mean the 'mainstream' doc marten wearing little sh*ts like this one on dean's website.
So it appears that the double standard here when it comes to this crap doesnât just apply to Israel after all ...
THE European Union (EU) has reiterated its call to the Government to seek a peaceful solution to the 17-year-old rebellion in northern Uganda. The EU Head of delegation in Uganda, Sigurd Illing, said the Government should negotiate with Satan the Lordâs Resistance Army (LRA) rebels.
"Now, if we had something like that in Norway or Sweden, or wherever the hell it is that I come from, it would be different. But you Natives, you're used to having people come in raping your women and stealing your children and killing your men. Just give them what they want and maybe they'll leave you alone."
He said the war had displaced nearly 1.2 million people and caused death of many others.
"That's what I mean. 1.2 million people â boy, in Norway that would have been a quarter of the entire population! Luckily, you Natives breed like flies, so there's always more of you, eh?"
Illing was speaking after he accepted the Always Be Tolerant (ABETO) diplomatic peace award 2003 yesterday in Kampala. The Chief Justice, Benjamin Odoki, presented the award to Illing. Illing said conflict undermined poverty reduction, good governance and human rights strategies.
"You see, that's what's really important. We can't let a few piles of corpses divert our attention from protecting Human Rightsâ¢!"
He said the war could create a fertile breeding ground for terrorism.
"So it's best to give your terrorists what they want, and then terrorism will go away and you can all live together happily!"
He said the EU had spent over sh10b in peace and human rights programmes. Illing said the EU supports religious leaders and civil society organisations efforts to end the conflict. Does that include killing Kony?
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:43:15 AM ||
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Illing was speaking after he accepted the Always Be Tolerant (ABETO) diplomatic peace award 2003 yesterday in Kampala.
I think my kid's second grade class awards one of these also.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 8:33 Comments ||
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The EU Celebrates Diversity in Uganda. "Psychopathic Killers Are People Too!"
Not much to do with the WOT, but it does give us an idea on the kind of mentality that drives the NIF and its fellow travelers in Sudan that should shed some light on recent events in Darfur.
I'd say it has everything to do with the WoT. Allah knows best, and it sez right in the Koran that you should take and keep slaves...
The twenty-year long Sudanese civil war has been waged on the periphery of the consciousness of the Western world. Two million people have perished in that conflict, 4 million more displaced, mostly Christian and animist blacks living in the southern part of the country, a civilian population deliberately targeted by the fundamentalist Islamic government in Khartoum for mass starvation and enslavement. The description of the violence in Sudan as a civil war is itself a misnomer, suggesting that counter political claims â rather than unilateral religious extremism â lie at its core. The inhabitants of southern Sudan are, in fact, unknown victims of the worldâs longest-running jihad. Only occasionally have the images of the starving, of the walking skeletons and the children with distended bellies, reached the evening news or the front pages of major newspapers. The persistence of widespread slavery into the twenty-first century is almost completely unreported. That Sudan served as a haven for Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida from 1991 to 1996 is the extent to which many Americans are cognizant of the north African country, if at all.
Although the existence of slavery in Sudan has been well-documented by international groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, as well as by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Sudan, the Khartoum government has worked incessantly to obscure its policy of enslavement and to discredit those who report it. Its most recent target is Francis Bok, a black Christian who has recounted his own experience as human chattel in a newly published autobiography, "Escape from Slavery."
Behind the political scenes, a growing coalition of American groups has labored to focus the resources of the U.S. government on the tragedy in Sudan. That coalition, consisting of multi-religious and multi-ethnic groups and secular human rights organizations, in 1999 pushed through Congress with overwhelming bi-partisan support a resolution condemning the Sudanese government for systematic genocide. Days before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, it succeeded in having President Bush dispatch former Sen. John Danforth, R-Mo., as his special envoy for Sudan. After two years, the efforts of Danforth and others in the international community have borne fruit, with a peace agreement between the Sudanese government and the rebel Peopleâs Liberation Army. Under its terms, southern Sudan is to be granted six-year, interim autonomy before its residents vote on a referendum for independence. But the issue of slavery, and the fate of thousands of black slaves currently held in the north, is conspicuously absent from the agreement.
Why would rebel leaders consent to an accord that failed to confront slavery? At stake in negotiations between the government and the rebels are valuable water and oil resources, as well as billions of dollars in international aid. In acquiescing to Khartoumâs desire to ignore the issue of slavery, SPLA leaders have subordinated human lives to power and money. Khartoumâs failure to recognize â let alone accept responsibility for â gross human rights abuses, the continued attacks against Bok and anti-slavery activists, the absence of the issue of slavery from the peace agenda; all are reasons why hopes for peace in Sudan may be misplaced.
"The government of Sudan doesnât have much credibility," Tommy Calvert, Jr., the American Anti-Slavery Groupâs Chief of External Operations, told me. "Khartoum is a known state-supporter of terrorism that has broken peace agreements before." Calvert, who grew up in San Antonio, returned from a mission to Sudan two weeks ago. He reported another disturbing development. Since July, the international community has charged UNICEF with freeing and repatriating slaves. Yet despite a cessation in violence that means the retrieval of slaves can be conducted safely, UNICEF has yet to free a single human being from captivity.
Danforth has stated that a just and lasting peace in Sudan cannot be achieved without an honest accounting and resolution of slavery. Tens of thousands of slaves remain in bondage there. As the world has ignored their plight in the past, it is now prepared to ignore their fate in the future. "History will judge us and how we deal with this issue of slavery no less harshly than past generations," Calvert said. The international community has a political and economic stake in stabilizing Sudan and bringing it back into the community of nations. But in the rush to reach a peace agreement in that war-torn nation and profitably develop its natural resources, the slaves of southern Sudan must not be forgotten.
They're just Negroes, after all. They don't feel pain like we do, do they? It's not like they were Swiss or Luxembourgeois, so why get too worked up about them?
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:39:56 AM ||
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We should create a States that Tolerate Slavery List just as the Sudan makes it off the Terror list.
Posted by: Super Hose ||
12/15/2003 8:36 Comments ||
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This is disgusting.
Where's the international condemnation of this? (tumbleweed) Oh sorry, they've all gravitated to the far more profitable 'slagging off the US for digging through Saddams hair on TV in a *disrespectful manner*'.
Hypocrites.
Can you *imagine* what the uproar would be if the people being enslaved where of some other religious persuasion?
Of course you can.
Posted by: Tony (UK) ||
12/15/2003 10:28 Comments ||
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Iâm still not certain why India would do this, given Sudanâs links to the terror network in all of that cash that was sent there from Iran in September 2002 or the US intel assessment in May 2003 after the Riyadh bombings saying that al-Qaeda was being allowed to reopen its training camps in the country. That doesnât even begin to get into the NIFâs ties to Eritrean, Ugandan, and Somali al-Qaeda affiliates, but far be it from me to understand why nations like Russia or India would sell this crap to nations that may at some point in the future give it to people who would just as soon use it against them ...
India has offered military training and defence equipment technology to Sudan for the ambitious 20 year plan to revive and develop its Army, Sudanese Defence Minister Maj Gen Bakri Hassan Salih said on Sunday. "We have an ambitious 20 year plan for the revival of the development of Sudanese Army. India has demonstrated its political will and determination in this process," Salih told reporters after his visit to the Bharat Earth Movers Ltd factory, a defence undertaking, here. He said the training would encompass the Navy, Army and the Air Force, besides technical institutions in Sudan. Salih, who called on President A P J Abdul Kalam and Defence Minister George Fernandes at New Delhi on Saturday, said India had committed to transfer of defence technology to the African nation, which is close to signing a peace agreement with rebels in the country. And is getting ready to start a new civil war in Darfur ...
"We want all equipment that is produced in India," he said, adding that the Sudanese delegation had visited several defence establishments in the country including BEML. "There are several areas of cooperation which we discussed with George Fernandes... what is important is at the political level, the level of commitment and preparedness of the Indian side. We will evaluate our needs before we come back for agreement or signing contracts," Salih said. He said a delegation led by Sudanese oil minister visited New Delhi last week, the first after Kalamâs Sudan visit.
Posted by: Dan Darling ||
12/15/2003 12:37:30 AM ||
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#1
Iâm still not certain why India would do this, given Sudanâs links to the terror network in all of that cash that was sent there from Iran in September 2002 or the US intel assessment in May 2003 after the Riyadh bombings saying that al-Qaeda was being allowed to reopen its training camps in the country.
I think there's this view that the Indians are now our kemosabes, because they're also fighting a terror problem of their own. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Indians are fighting in Kashmir to preserve an Indian empire they never even conquered for themselves - the British did it for them. And the strange thing is that despite this favor, the Indians have a real chip on their shoulder about the Brits - as if India's modernization could have occurred without British imperialism. That chip, now the size of a cinder block, has now been transferred to the US, which it sees as a new British empire. The recent confab with the Chinese, where the Indian leader announced that when India and China stand together, no one can oppose us, was a mixture of vainglory, wishful thinking, stupidity and misdirected anger (obviously at the US). Note also that the Indian government sided with the Soviets throughout the Cold War, which is further out than even the French ventured. India is making nice with the US because it hopes to gain US support for its colonial venture in Kashmir - no more and no less. Like France, India's a democracy, but it has even fewer things in common with the US than the French have with us.
#2
India sided with the Soviets because for the first 40 years of it's independance it was ruled by the Indian National Congress, which was a socialist party and leaned towards the Soviets. In contrast, Pakistan's government was overthrown in a military coup in the early 50's, and the new General became an ally of America, and so the Indo-Pak dispute settled along Cold War lines.
The present Indian government in dominated by the BJP, which is a right-wing Hindu oriented party that was in favor of closer ties to America and Israel, while keeping it's strong ties with the Third World nations that the Congress party cultivated.
Just as America has and continues to give Billions of dollars to the Pakistani Army, because they do not see them as a threat, so the Indians cultivate countries like Iran and Sudan, because they are no threat to her. Pakistani sponsored insurgencies and terrorism is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Indian soldiers and civilians in the past couple decades, but the American government has always given the (understandable) impression that they don't care about terrorism directed against India, as long as it's not directed against America. However it essentially is the same fight, since the major Jihadi groups operating in Kashmir, such as the Jaish-e-Mohammad, Laskar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul-Mujahideen are all part of Bin Ladin's International Islamic Front.
Posted by: Paul Moloney ||
12/15/2003 3:37 Comments ||
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#3
Paul and Zhang Fei, you two are forgetting about one key thing, namely that corruption and bribery are still extremely high in even the current Indian government which in turn causes these same people to find whatever makes the most money without regard to how it affects the rest of the world. Stuff like this doesn't surprise me, India is trying to gain ground on the international scale as a nation that can produce everything from IT and Engineering staff to weapons and other arms procurement. Combine that with the egoism that the BJP has in its dealings (hell every time I look at these guys I think of cronies with nothing better to do than strut their feathers and try to show their "power") and you get what India is currently. Also just like China, India needs and consumes a vast amount of oil, and that supply can be easily threatened, so I wouldn't be surprised either if they deal with just about anybody to guarantee their supplies.
Posted by: Val ||
12/15/2003 6:28 Comments ||
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#4
I suspect there is a mixture of all these motives: national pride, a lingering resentment of the Anglosphere and need for oil and natural gas - c.f. their insistance that they will continue to transfer nuclear technology to Iran.
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