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2023-08-03 -Signs, Portents, and the Weather-

Did FDR/Churchill Invite Pearl Harbor To Keep Japan Out Of War With Russia Since Stalin Would Have Quit If Facing Japan and Germany With No US In The War-Making Germany Win WWII?

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Posted by NoMoreBS 2023-08-03 00:00|| E-Mail|| Front Page|| [26 views ] Top

#1 OhJesusFuckingChrist....

No... just... no.

Japan had already gotten its teeth kicked in by Russia during the Mongolian fight and by Zhukov no less. After that, before Pearl Harbor, Japan signed a secret non-aggression pact with Russia keeping it from Germany.

FDR knew Japan very well may attack, but they thought it would be in the Philippines and Wake. The US had even issues orders to prepare for a Japanese attack in those areas. Pearl was a complete surprise and shock.

Posted by DarthVader 2023-08-03 00:22|| 2023-08-03 00:22|| Front Page Top

#2 Oh, that again. I read the book, there is one on this particular conspiracy theory.

No, if anything FDR considered a Japanese attack in the Philippines to be likely. Likely is NOT the same as certain. Hawaii is a long, long way from the Japanese Home Islands and most US military planners were blind to the military abilities of Japan.

Posted by magpie 2023-08-03 00:37|| 2023-08-03 00:37|| Front Page Top

#3 No.

The US just came out of the brutal great depression (1929 – 1941) and the American people were still reeling from the pain of that event to get caught up in a war.

The US also thought the Japs would strike South America first to get access to rubber plantations for their modernized war machine, so my father manned a 50 cal along the Rio Grande in case they then hit Southern border to prevent a US response to a South American encursion.

Posted by Jeremiah Jomosing7109 2023-08-03 04:55|| 2023-08-03 04:55|| Front Page Top

#4 Everyone knew the attack was coming at Pearl. The US Navy drilled in their Fleet Problems repeatedly. The Japanese had an exam question at the naval academy about the best way to attack Pearl. It wasn't a surprise nor a secret.

South America? Never seen any references to that in Japanese sources. It was the oil in the Pacific they needed.

Posted by Spike Flomort7424 2023-08-03 06:18|| 2023-08-03 06:18|| Front Page Top

#5 A Pacific Fleet was created in 1907 when the Asiatic Squadron and the Pacific Squadron were combined. In 1910, the ships of the First Squadron were organized back into a separate Asiatic Fleet. The General Order 94 of 6 December 1922 organized the United States Fleet, with the Battle Force as the Pacific presence. Until May 1940, the Battle Force was stationed on the West Coast of the United States. Headquarters, battleships, aircraft carriers and heavy cruisers were stationed at San Pedro close to the Long Beach Naval Shipyard. Light cruisers, destroyers and submarines were stationed at San Diego.

During the summer of 1940, as part of the U.S. response to Japanese expansionism, it was instructed to take an "advanced" position at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Long term basing at Pearl Harbor was so strongly opposed by the commander, Admiral James O. Richardson, that he personally protested in Washington. Political considerations were thought sufficiently important that he was relieved by Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, who was in command at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Pacific Fleet was formally recreated on 1 February 1941, when General Order 143 split the United States Fleet into separate Atlantic, Pacific, and Asiatic Fleets. - wiki

Posted by Procopius2k 2023-08-03 06:53|| 2023-08-03 06:53|| Front Page Top

#6 (sound of head slamming on desk)

It was always - ALWAYS - assumed that the Japanese were going to go after the PI first, then our respective fleets would meet in a dreadnaught armageddon. See also, War Plan Orange.

Spike Flomort7424 rightly and accurately points out that the USN's fleet problems almost exclusively focused on Pearl, but keep in mind too that Pearl was...well, convenient. To actually exercise WPO would have cost a hell of a lot of money that the USN just didn't have. The PI was always, always the focus - but WPO always assumed that Pearl and San Diego would be operational; you take one out of the equation and it's over. Roosevelt was legitimately stunned when he got the word that Pearl was hit; and fortunately we had admirals ready to sort things.

Mike

Posted by MikeKozlowski 2023-08-03 07:10|| 2023-08-03 07:10|| Front Page Top

#7 The Japanese DID attack the Philippines. At the same time.

Posted by Spike Flomort7424 2023-08-03 09:50|| 2023-08-03 09:50|| Front Page Top

#8 Proof that hindsight is not always 20-20.

Posted by M. Murcek 2023-08-03 09:53|| 2023-08-03 09:53|| Front Page Top

#9 Set as a Classic thread, as exemplary of a lot of what we get here.

Thank. You.

Posted by badanov 2023-08-03 09:54|| 2023-08-03 09:54|| Front Page Top

#10
#7 The Japanese DID attack the Philippines. At the same time.
Posted by: Spike Flomort7424 2023-08-03 09:50

Spike,

They actually hit the PI ten hours after MacArthur got word of the strike on Pearl....who then proceeded to lock up tight and do nothing. When the Japanese finally did show up, they demolished the Far East Air Force, destroyed the USN facilities there, and the US Army/Philippine garrisons were doomed to slow defeat.

Mike

Posted by MikeKozlowski 2023-08-03 10:45|| 2023-08-03 10:45|| Front Page Top

#11 This site has a lot of groupthink going, doesn't it? Something tells me there's a lot of everyone thinking the same here. I can see I'm not welcome, but I'll leave you with this parting gift of facts.

Posted by Harcourt Tholuse6841 2023-08-03 10:56|| 2023-08-03 10:56|| Front Page Top

#12 Are there still Boston Massacre conspiracies bubbling on the back burner?

Posted by Super Hose 2023-08-03 11:34|| 2023-08-03 11:34|| Front Page Top

#13 parting gift of facts

You have your facts we have ours.
The fact was the Japanese militarists who ran Japan had no intention of surrendering. They were willing to sacrifice the civilian population for their power and collective necks as they had already demonstrated at Saipan and Okinawa. A behavior that would have continued if we landed on the home islands. What the bombs did was shift the power from the militarists to the politicians who wanted to end the war and destruction. Since taking power in the 30s, any politician who was considered a threat to their power was assassinated. Even in the last hours they attempted a coup to prevent surrender. Please point out one major war that ended solely upon air/sea bombardment and blockade.

see your vid with mine.

Posted by 2023-08-03 11:52|| 2023-08-03 11:52|| Front Page Top

#14 ^ that was me.

Posted by Procopius2k 2023-08-03 11:53|| 2023-08-03 11:53|| Front Page Top

#15 Perhaps this is a forest for the trees issue? My purpose in posting this was NOT the spurious argument that FDR wanted the attack on Pearl Harbor per se, but the macro strategic questions behind the US/UK meetings that produced the Atlantic Charter and throughout the rest of 1941, to wit, how to keep the Soviet Union in the war.
If the Japanese came into the war in 1941, it seems likely that their massive armies in China would have been able to pin down the Siberian Russian forces that were being shifted west to stop the Barbarossa onslaught. Churchill was keenly aware of the vulnerabilities of the Empire, the UK itself after the Dunkirk evacuation, and was desperate to obtain greater US aid, engagement and eventually, war with Germany. My interest is in trying to get insights into the question of how FDR considered the risks to the US IF the Brits were defeated, and how if they did the US faced a two-ocean threat as the sole remaining major power not under Axis rule. What drastic measures would FDR have been considering to avoid a UK defeat and how key a lynchpin to achieve that was keeping the Soviets in the war.

Posted by NoMoreBS 2023-08-03 12:12|| 2023-08-03 12:12|| Front Page Top

#16 #13 - Bill Whittle talks too fast.

But I've never failed to be impressed by his messages. I thought I knew a lot about the end of WW II. Thanks, Bill.

Posted by Bobby 2023-08-03 12:26|| 2023-08-03 12:26|| Front Page Top

#17 "The fact was the Japanese militarists who ran Japan had no intention of surrendering. They were willing to sacrifice the civilian population for their power and collective necks as they had already demonstrated at Saipan and Okinawa. A behavior that would have continued if we landed on the home islands..."

Agreed. The idea of mass producing reflective "white anti-Bomb smocks" was being discussed.

"What the bombs did was shift the power from the militarists to the politicians who wanted to end the war and destruction"--P2K

No. The Japanese upper echelon were clinging to the idea that a neutral USSR would step in and allow the existence of a strong Imperial Japan as a a counterweight to the Colonial Powers. Then Stalin tore up the Japan-USSR Neutrality Treaty and crushed Manchuria. All hope of a "Diplomatic Solution" was crushed and the end was clear: Surrender or be starved to death by blockade/transportation destruction, urban centers firebombed into ashes and finally landings followed by occupation. The A-Bombs were just a radioactive cherry on top of an excrement sundae.

The A-Bombs did offer a wonderful psychological bandage to the wounded Japanese psyche. The Allies, US particularly, did not beat their armies, shoot down the air forces, sink all their ships and crush them by economic production -- They Cheated! They had to use these new-fangled A-Bombs!

Posted by magpie 2023-08-03 13:06|| 2023-08-03 13:06|| Front Page Top

#18 Read "The Imperial Japanese Navy" Naval Institute Press. By late 1943, early 1944 the Japanese had lost so many ships, especially destroyers, the end of the navy was inevitable. They had lost too many carrier planes and especially pilots that they could not replace.

Posted by Deacon Blues 2023-08-03 13:55|| 2023-08-03 13:55|| Front Page Top

#19 No.

Japan and Russia were at it already.

Other than some quirky initial success, Russia stomped Japan.

The conflict was drawing resources from Communist Backed Chinese Forces.

I haven't heard one like this since the last I was around 'libertarians'.

Posted by swksvolFF 2023-08-03 16:04|| 2023-08-03 16:04|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm sure I've posted this here before but here goes....

In his Autobiography a young Akira Kurosawa got married and prepared for the Emperor to order the national suicide. He was a very western director but would have followed the orders if given by the Emporer. Luckily for Japan the Emporer decided he could not win and surrenders. The bombs likely saved Japan.

Posted by ruprecht 2023-08-03 20:27|| 2023-08-03 20:27|| Front Page Top

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