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| Europe |
| Germany and France exploring an alliance |
| 2003-11-13 |
| EFL: Out with the European Union! In with the Franco-German Union? That was the gist of a series of articles in the Thursday edition of Le Monde claiming that France and Germany are "studying a project of unity." The newspaper said that Paris and Berlin were emboldened by their collective opposition to the war in Iraq and were fearful of losing influence once the European Union admits 10 new members next May. Afraid they won’t listen to their betters and shut up. "If a Europe of 25 fails, what will be left for France?" Le Monde quoted Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the French prime minister, as saying in reference to the enlarged European Union. His answer, according to the paper, was the "the Franco-German rapprochement." Le Monde said that Pascal Lamy of France, the trade commissioner at the European Commission, would like to see a "bund," or alliance, that would allow France and Germany to fuse their militaries and diplomatic corps and to share France’s seat at the United Nations Security Council. "The Franco-German Bund", that has a nice historic ring to it. The paper quoted Dominique de Villepin, the French foreign minister, as saying that a rapprochement with Germany was the "only gamble that we cannot lose." The articles relied almost entirely on the views of French officials, although at one point a German academic was quoted as saying that the German defense and foreign ministries could have problems with the idea. "We’d like it to read "The German-franco Bund", please." Le Monde pointed out - and analysts in Brussels agreed - that talk of a Franco-German union is partly a negotiating tactic to influence deadlocked discussions on the final text of the European Constitution. France, Germany and several other countries are trying to push through the draft constitution with only minor changes but are meeting strong resistance from countries like Spain and Poland, which object to a revamped voting system. Britain and some Eastern European newcomers to the EU are also resisting moves to extend cooperation into areas like defense, taxation and foreign policy. "We’d prefer to remain soverign nations" By threatening to focus more closely on their own union, France and Germany are sending a message to the newcomers about what they see as their core role as the original founders of the European Union. "We were here first, we get to make the rules and be in charge!" France and Germany share some diplomatic posts, have regular exchanges within their ministries and occasionally have joint cabinet meetings. But they have trouble agreeing on certain issues, among them France’s nuclear program. I’m sure there are more than a few european nations that would also have a problem with the Germans getting anywhere near the French nukes. They remember history all too well. |
| Posted by:Steve |
| #25 Does anyone remember an episode of "Star Trek - The Next Generation" in which was mentioned a nuclear war during the mid-21st century involving something called "the European Hegemony"? |
| Posted by: Jeff 2003-11-14 12:15:42 AM |
| #24 And when you actually read what I wrote, perhaps you'll be able to answer. Until then drop the non-sequiturs Sorry about that Aris, thought you could deduce my thoughts on that. I was wrong. I doubt many people would see Turkey as a threat to *world* peace, since few people would expect the whole world to go to war defending us Okay I see your point here. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2003-11-13 6:28:31 PM |
| #23 True German Ally, I think you are probably right, the Germans would agitate until the French finally got rid of their nukes. They would like to share the Security Council seat (and I don't blame them). What confuses me is all this talk about what if the Europe of 25 fails. Well then you have a Europe of 20, or 15, or however many get along. That might end up being just Germany France and Benilux. Trying to set up a backup plan (a) sabotages the original plan somewhat by showing no confidence (b) presupposes that the French and whomever the backup plan was made with aren't the cause of the breakup in the first place. I'm really interested to see how the Central thinking France-first French are going to get along with the rest of Europe. I don't see a whole lot of happy politics going on. |
| Posted by: Yank 2003-11-13 5:51:01 PM |
| #22 Sorry,but every time I see an article on French-German(f before g in English alphabet),I immediately am reminded of Larry Bond's CAULDRON. |
| Posted by: Stephen 2003-11-13 5:42:38 PM |
| #21 First the nukes... they seem to concern you most. Well, my friends the only ones who should be afraid of Germans possessing nukes are... the nukes! Germany never wanted nukes, a majority doesn't even want nuclear power plants. Excuse me, what do we need nukes for? To scare the hell out of... Liechtenstein? This is all nonsense and I can't remember a serious discussion with people in Germany wanting to have nukes. Not even the French ones. We'd just try to abolish them. L'union franco-allemande... well that "dream" sems to be rather confined to the chancellors entourage. Remember he had a French consultant, Brigitte Sauzay (a Mitterand confidente), who died two days ago. There has certainly been a rapprochement due to the joint opposition to the Iraq war, but the French and German systems are still quite incompatible... gaullist centralism versus German federalism. What we share is bureaucracy and a lame economy (we're at least trying to do something about that now). That said, Germany needs to be integrated firmly into a European Union coming closer together... reading Charles I see that the "old fears" of an independent strong Germany are not likely to go away anytime soon. So if a Europe of 25 states fails (or degenerates into a loose association of states minding their own business), Germany will need to look to alternatives... one could certainly be a "core Europe" (the original European Community minus Italy) plus strengthened ties to Eastern Europe and Russia on the backburner. The political class in Germany still is very "atlantic" and once we put the current irritations with the U.S. to rest, Germany will probably try to reassume its role as a transatlantic mediator with the U.S. on one side and France (plus Eastern Europe) on the other. The conservative powers (bound to return very soon) will not jeopardize 50 years of close ties to the United States. Germany remains by large the most "americanized" country of Europe. Not many people speak French here. As for that "Israel as biggest threat to world peace"... I think that poll was fundamentally flawed. I am rather sure that people were thinking about the Israel-Palestine conflict as the biggest threat, not the state of Israel (or the Jews). And nobody could possibily deny that this conflict IS a threat to world peace. We're not discussing whose fault that is here. |
| Posted by: True German Ally 2003-11-13 4:25:38 PM |
| #20 The problem with saying that 'Israel is the biggest threat to world peace' is that it implies that Israel is in the wrong. Putting the lie to your statement Aris. Now if the Euroweenies had said 'the Israeli-Palestine issue is the biggest threat' it would be different. But then again, most here know that the Eurotrash don't think Israel has a right to exist. |
| Posted by: Swiggles 2003-11-13 3:58:07 PM |
| #19 Shipman> Actually most Greeks saw the Americans as the big threat -- it was all the rest of the Europeans saw Israel. I doubt many people would see Turkey as a threat to *world* peace, since few people would expect the whole world to go to war defending us. Threat to us specifically is a different question. And the poll had a certain list of countries people were asked to choose from -- Turkey wasn't included, I think. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:49:37 PM |
| #18 Shipman> And when you actually read what I wrote, perhaps you'll be able to answer. Until then drop the non-sequiturs. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:34:07 PM |
| #17 Actually I'm curious... The Greeks saw the Israelis as the big threat... where did Turkey end up on the list? Wasn't that long ago that yawl were rumbling. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2003-11-13 3:33:56 PM |
| #16 Robert> If you are referring to Israel, then a couple years back that might very well have been "Bosnia". Or "Yugoslavia" in general. Would that mean European were demonizing the Slavs? What country's situation causes a greater threat to world peace? Israel is currently in war with the Palestinians, is in danger of war with Syria and Lebanon, and if Saudi Arabia goes Islamic will be in danger of war with that one as well. That doesn't mean Israel wouldn't be on the *right side* in these wars. It would indeed be on the right, given how much more horrible its opponents and potential opponents are. But people who don't see the situation of Israel as a risk to world peace are frankly deluding themselves. Rafael> Easily amused, I see. |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:26:42 PM |
| #15 all I see is the bugs bunny episode (a tree grows in Brooklyn) with the two dogs. One surly bulldog and one mincing suck-up. |
| Posted by: eyeyeye 2003-11-13 3:23:13 PM |
| #14 This has been tried over and over from Charlemagne to Petain. France and Germany are the Ross and Rachel of countries. |
| Posted by: Christopher Johnson 2003-11-13 3:21:29 PM |
| #13 Robert, you beat me to it! :) The Europeans prove over and over again that they can't help but judge people by ethnicity. To say otherwise is ridiculous as this truth is made abundantly clear through their words, their polls and their actions. |
| Posted by: Damn_Proud_American 2003-11-13 3:21:22 PM |
| #12 haha good one Robert (again). |
| Posted by: Rafael 2003-11-13 3:06:28 PM |
| #11 In the rest of the continent, it's evil ideologies that we are primarily scared of, not evil ethnic groups. Really? I suggest you go back and consult a recent poll on who Europeans view as the biggest threats to world peace. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2003-11-13 3:00:20 PM |
| #10 To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought." Scarier than Russia and China possessing them? Aris you're right..... It wouldn't bother the Russians a bit. They're a mature country which will refuse to demonize the sons of the Teutonic Horde. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2003-11-13 2:01:33 PM |
| #9 "I’m sure there are more than a few european nations that would also have a problem with the Germans getting anywhere near the French nukes." AFAIK, it's only the *British* tabloids that harbour this kind of nationalistic xenophobia towards the Germans. In the rest of the continent, it's evil ideologies that we are primarily scared of, not evil ethnic groups. E.g. remember the reaction about Heider? "They remember history all too well. " Oh, better than you do, I wager. They remember what it means to demonize a whole people, for example. "To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought." Scarier than Russia and China possessing them? Scarier than Pakistan and India possessing them? Obsessed about WW2, much? Do you think that Japan possessing nukes would also be a scary thought? And if not, why? |
| Posted by: Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 1:54:43 PM |
| #8 Something smell a little Vichy here. |
| Posted by: Atrus 2003-11-13 1:50:17 PM |
| #7 Re: german influence over French nukes Does anyone here really think the Germans would be less responsible than the French? I dont. Re: whats going on - the EU superstate project has always largely been, for France, a way to harnass German economic might to French political interests. If the EU doesnt function that way, their logical alternative is a bilateral combination - since they dont have the economic strenght on their own to challenge the "hyperpower". OTOH from the German point of view, the EU project was a chance to extend influence and economic ties to the East, without the resistance that an expanion of purely German power eastward would bring. A franco-german combo doesnt accomplish that, and so would seem to have little to offer the Germans. TGA? |
| Posted by: liberalhawk 2003-11-13 12:50:27 PM |
| #6 Anytime someone talks about the Germans having anything to do with nukes, even peripherally, Tom Lehrer's song from the 1960's pops into my head. MLF [Multilateral Force] Lullaby: Sleep, baby, sleep, in peace may you slumber, No danger lurks, your sleep to encumber. We've got the missiles, peace to determine, And one of the fingers on the button will be German. Why shouldn't they have nuclear warheads? England says no, but they all are soreheads. I say a bygone should be a bygone, Let's make peace the way we did in Stanleyville and Saigon. Once all the Germans were warlike and mean, But that couldn't happen again. We taught them a lesson in 1918 And they've hardly bothered us since then. So, sleep well, my darling, the sandman can linger. We know our buddies won't give us the finger. Heil - hail - the Wehrmacht, I mean the Bundeswehr, Hail to our loyal ally! M L F Will scare Brezhnev. [Soviet leader at the time] I hope he is half as scared as I! The more things change, the more they remain the same. Too bad the French don't realize that. |
| Posted by: Barbara Skolaut 2003-11-13 12:32:24 PM |
| #5 Germany has made several tries at having influence / control of nuclear weapons developed by other nations ... France and UK, primarily, but also through NATO of US weapons. (Anybody remember Multilateral Force debates?) They've also signed the non-proliferation treaty, IIRC, which means this is their only approach to having them, unless they were willing to repudiate that agreement. They haven't given up getting them and will keep trying, I think, while also looking down on countries that openly develop them (c.f. the US). |
| Posted by: rkb 2003-11-13 12:16:47 PM |
| #4 BH: rest assured that the Belgian poodles will be yapping to join the Bund. |
| Posted by: Steve White 2003-11-13 11:54:25 AM |
| #3 I’m sure there are more than a few european nations that would also have a problem with the Germans getting anywhere near the French nukes. They remember history all too well. So do I. Germany almost had the Atomic bomb first, but several factors prevented them from attaining it. To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought. |
| Posted by: Charles 2003-11-13 11:48:25 AM |
| #2 Actually, the headline should read: France Asks for German Takeover |
| Posted by: Chuck Simmins 2003-11-13 11:36:51 AM |
| #1 Aw, we don't need those guys. We can start our own club! We can have mapes and secret codes, and that dumb Belgium can't join! Nyah! |
| Posted by: BH 2003-11-13 11:21:03 AM |